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<blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 2695869" data-attributes="member: 2013">Again, require two checks.&nbsp; The first check is the Int check (or Knowledge check) to see if the character knows the trivia or can recognize the pattern inherent in the puzzle; i.e., to see if his mind holds the key at all.&nbsp; The second check is the Wis check, which allows him to realize he HAS the key and then apply it to the puzzle (thereby solving it).Again, D&amp;D is NOT &quot;stump the players.&quot;&nbsp; The players should be expected to make a reasonable attempt at the puzzle.&nbsp; If they make an attempt, but play bogs down, and they're all sitting there frustrated, you need to start throwing Int/Wis checks to move the game along.And if puzzles just &quot;aren't what they want&quot; then you need to have a talk about what you - and they - want out of the campaign to make sure you're on the same page.Keep in mind that a puzzle can look like this to the players: &quot;I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;&quot;Five.&quot;&quot;Wrong.&nbsp; I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;&quot;Sixty-Nine, dude!&quot;&quot;Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;&quot;42.&quot;&quot;Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;&quot;Seventeen.&quot;&quot;Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;*sigh* &quot;e to the i pi&quot;&quot;Wrong.&nbsp; I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;*screams*At this point, you need to roll the dice and say, &quot;The number I'm thinking of has to do with the sentence I am giving you. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;(players take 30 seconds to count words in sentence) &quot;Sixteen.&quot;&quot;Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;(players take 2 minutes to count letters in sentence) &quot;Sixty Five.&quot;&quot;Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;*SCREAM*(Roll, roll).&nbsp; &quot;Try performing arithmetic operations on vowels and consonants. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;Do you see what I'm getting at here?&nbsp; Put yourself in their shoes.Or better yet, it could look like:&quot;I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;&quot;I want to kill some orcs.&quot;&quot;Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;&quot;Dude, I had a long day at work, and right now I want some mindless violence.&nbsp; Let's kill some orcs.&quot;&quot;Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out.&quot;This is really a social question (your group vs your dynamics and expectations), not a gameplay style question.--The Sigil</blockquote>

[QUOTE="The Sigil, post: 2695869, member: 2013"] Again, require two checks. The first check is the Int check (or Knowledge check) to see if the character knows the trivia or can recognize the pattern inherent in the puzzle; i.e., to see if his mind holds the key at all. The second check is the Wis check, which allows him to realize he HAS the key and then apply it to the puzzle (thereby solving it). Again, D&D is NOT "stump the players." The players should be expected to make a reasonable attempt at the puzzle. If they make an attempt, but play bogs down, and they're all sitting there frustrated, you need to start throwing Int/Wis checks to move the game along. And if puzzles just "aren't what they want" then you need to have a talk about what you - and they - want out of the campaign to make sure you're on the same page. Keep in mind that a puzzle can look like this to the players: "I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." "Five." "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." "Sixty-Nine, dude!" "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." "42." "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." "Seventeen." "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." *sigh* "e to the i pi" "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." *screams* At this point, you need to roll the dice and say, "The number I'm thinking of has to do with the sentence I am giving you. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." (players take 30 seconds to count words in sentence) "Sixteen." "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." (players take 2 minutes to count letters in sentence) "Sixty Five." "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." *SCREAM* (Roll, roll). "Try performing arithmetic operations on vowels and consonants. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." Do you see what I'm getting at here? Put yourself in their shoes. Or better yet, it could look like: "I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." "I want to kill some orcs." "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." "Dude, I had a long day at work, and right now I want some mindless violence. Let's kill some orcs." "Wrong. I'm thinking of a number, and you can't go any further until you've figured it out." This is really a social question (your group vs your dynamics and expectations), not a gameplay style question. --The Sigil [/QUOTE]

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