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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DamionW" data-source="post: 2700316" data-attributes="member: 18649">The problem with this point, Mallus,  is that you think players like myself are advocating the: "I bluff" "Roll" "You succeed" level of abstraction.  I am doing no such thing.  Let's put it in three levels of abstraction with relevent examples:Combat:LEVEL 1: PC - I hurt the orc.    DM - How?LEVEL 2:  PC - I attack the orc with my long sword while flanking him.   DM - okay, make your attack roll with +2 flanking bonusLEVEL 3: PC - <getting up from the table> I swing my long sword which is weighted about the same as this baseball bat <picks up bat> in a sideways manner striking the orc mid-ribcageMaking Money:LEVEL 1:  PC - I get rich.   DM - Umm, how?LEVEL 2: PC - I spend the week using my Profession: Cobbler skill to make a few pairs of boots and sell them.   DM - Okay make your check, and half of that number is how many gp you get from the boots.LEVEL 3:  PC - okay, <grabbing pieces of leather> I spend the week sewing pieces of leather together like so <molds the leather into the shape of a boot> in order to make footwearUsing rope:LEVEL 1: PC - I tie a knot.   DM - Like a simple knot, or a noose, or what?LEVEL 2: PC - I tie a series of simple knots in the rope to make handholds to climb with.   DM - Okay, you take 10 untrained on the Use Rope skill several times and make some firm knotsLEVEL 3: PC - <grabbing the rope he got from Home Depot> alright, I'm making several square knots in the rope <breaks out his boy scout handbook> like this...Bluffing guards:LEVEL 1:  PC - I bluff to the guard.   DM - Umm, what are you trying to tell him?LEVEL 2:  PC - I'm going to try to bluff the guard into believing that we are with the city inspectors and it is best if he let us in else we'll bring the city guards through.  DM - Okay, roll your bluff and I'll roll the guard's sense motive and we'll make up a dialogue that works.LEVEL 3:  PC - "<In authoritarian tone> I am with the city inspector's office, stand aside! If you don't <glaring facial expression from the player> you'll face the wrath of the city guard!"Solving Puzzles:LEVEL 1:  PC - I use an INT check to solve the puzzle.   DM - You don't have any clues to go onLEVEL 2:  PC - I use my knowlege (history) skill to figure out the significance  of the three colored orbs in this dungeon.   DM - Well, based on what you rolled, you think the elves that designed this dungeon did place a lot of emphasis on color in their languageLEVEL 3:  PC - Okay, if I was there, I'd push the third symbol, second symbol, first symbol.  Does that do anything?  Alright, let me try first sumbol third symbol second symbol.  Does that do anything?  No.... {until solution is reached}In all cases, Level 1 does not provide enough detail for the DM to arbitrate.  However, for combat, profession and use rope, Level 2 causes the mechanic to work as advertise.  Some DMs feel I need to use a Level 3 character portrayal to solve a puzzle or bluff a guard.  My challenge is, why is this arbitrarily set there and not for all mechanics?  You are entitled to do that as GM.  Rule #0 let's you set whatever house rules you want.  However, if you don't publish to me at my characters inception that my ranks in Bluff will be arbitrated at a Level 3 of abstraction, how is that fair to me?  I can't perform to a level 3 bluff as a player, just like I can't perform to a Level 3 Profession Cobbler.  If I know you demand that of me for those skills, I'll either not select them or not play in your game.  Either way, waiting until I'm in front of the guard or the puzzle is a little late to spring an expectation of Level 3 performance from me on your particular favored areas of playing.</blockquote>

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