NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DamionW" data-source="post: 2703047" data-attributes="member: 18649">To me, CHA based skills seem to be the special case.  A RPG player who happens to make his life as an architect doesn't automatically get to act as if they had 10 ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering).  An intramural swimmer doesn't get to let their character bypass a raging river by showing his breast stroke techniqe, the DM still enforces a swim check based on the character's abilities.  Reflex saves aren't arbitrated by initiating a game of dodgeball and seeing how well you can get out of the way of things.  However, when someone feels RPing is vital to the game, often they bypass a CHA skill check in order to see the dialogue that would be used.  So my argument isn't that combat marks the standard such that every other mechanic must match that.  My argument is that no other area except situations where you're trying to talk your way past an NPC is your real life skill brought into question, so that attitude needs to be brought into check.RPing is fun.  It's fun to watch someone develop an identity for their character and run with it.  I'd never play the game if no player had to come up with an identity for their character and use first-person speech to develop it.  However, when the DM places an NPC obstacle in the party's way, he needs to realize a few things: a)  The party will need to get past that obstacle eventually b) The first person back-and-forth development of a dialogue is utilizing the player's skill to fast-talk, not the character's.  c)  If you happen to like any one player's falsehood or negotiation, you are not necessarily judging it as an objective portrayal of the character in question until you bring the dice mechanic into play.So, am I arguing to remove RPed dialogue from the game?  Certainly not, it makes the game what it is and broadens the imagination.  Do I think an ingenious lie that is delivered in first person perspective should automatically allow a PC to bypass an NPC obstacle?  No, because then you are not examining the character's ability to persuade and to lie, you are only examining the player's ability to think on their toes.All of this can also be used regarding the use of puzzles, as this thread is about.  When solving a puzzle, it is usually carried out in the realm of Level 3 abstraction where the player is thinking the puzzle through with his own reasoning skills.  Personally, I don't have a problem with this because I like puzzles.  However, if I'm at a table where another player is becoming frustrated because they aren't enjoying puzzles, it's worth discussing this with the DM and other players what the puzzle portion of a dungeon is contributing to a game.  If enough people don't want to use them, the DM should take that into account.</blockquote>

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