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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Uller" data-source="post: 1407159" data-attributes="member: 413">I've been reading all these threads and here is my take...this isn't what I think is "official"...it is how I run it and I think it doesn't lead to any invisible blind kobald nonsense....We'll use the example given at the beginning of the thread:  Rogue A (Fafard and Rogue B (Grey Mouser) are invisible and have positioned themselves on opposite sides of a constable who they want to kill.  Each gets multiple attacks (being who they are, I'd think they'd each get two per round...GM would probably be using two-weapons so he'd get three total).  The constable is unaware of where they are but he knows they are in the vicinity and has been fighting so he is _not_ flat-footed.Fafard gets a 13 on his init and GM gets 21.  So on GM's turn his player says "I do a full attack."  The question is, does he get to count Fafard for flanking.  IMO, that depends on whether or not Fafard wants the constable to become aware that he is threatening him.  This would count (in 3.0 terms) as a not-an-action...If Fafard wants to grant GM a flanking bonus (so he can continue to get sneak attacks even after he becomes visible) then Fafard must make the constable aware of his presence during GM's turn.    The point to remember is that the D&D combat model is not a blow-by-blow system.  It is an abstract.  In reality, Fafard and GM are acting simultaneously.   This is not to say that Fafard is actively attacking the constable.  Maybe on his turn he is going to ready to attack anyone who comes down the alley, leaving GM to do the dirty work.  Maybe he will not even take an AoO on the constable if he gets the opportunity.  But he does just enough to let the constable know that attacks could come from another direction.  Maybe he makes a noise, maybe he bumps against him, whatever.  The point is, now the constable knows he is there and feels threatened. This has the benefit of giving GM +2 for flanking and lets him make sneak attacks on ALL his attacks.  At the same time it means the constable can attack Fafard or make sneak attacks against him should Fafard decide to move and attack someone else...So IMG, if you want the benefits of threatening someone, you must also take the costs.  If you want to stand next to someone and have them be completely unaware of you, then you can't possibly threaten them enough to make them feel like they must defend against your (potential) attacks.Seems fair to me.  This is why we have DMs...the rules can't possibly cover every situation and the more they try to cover the exceptional situations, the worse off we'll be.</blockquote>

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