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<blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 6177866" data-attributes="member: 2525">First, lets correct some assumptions.We're talking about the rogue/thief trading backstab, for a non-combat ability.That's it.&nbsp; That's what I was commenting on.&nbsp; Nobody, and I mean NOBODY AT ALL, NOT FOR A SINGLE SOLITARY MOMENT, has suggested that a thief no longer be able to wield a sword like normal, or a bow, or have their attack progression lowered, or force them to not take Dex as a key stat, or anything else relating to combat.&nbsp; We're talking about trading one special ability: sneak attack.So now that we've dealt with the majority of what I view as a strawman, you tell me why this rogue/thief would be useless and bored in combat without sneak attack? I played that in 3e (it was an option) and it was great.As for your four conflicting styles of PCs issue: I've had good DMs, mediocre DMs, and bad DMs.&nbsp; Every single good DM was able to adapt their game to give everyone a spotlight in the game, and nobody was ever bored, no matter what choices they made for their PCs.&nbsp; I challenge you to game with Kevin (Piratecat from this board) and make whatever friggen bizarre combo character you want, and team with a group that has equally &quot;incompatible&quot; PCs, and I promise you with 100% certainty everyone will have fun and nobody will be bored.&nbsp; Same goes for Kirin (Kiznit from this board), and a half dozen others I know of, some on this very board.I can't go into the details on how that is done in this thread...it's way off topic, but I think it might make for a worthwhile thread.&nbsp; But my simple answer is yes - you can have a great game, even with four players and their PCs who prefer different things from the game.&nbsp; In fact, it can be even more fun that way.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mistwell, post: 6177866, member: 2525"] First, lets correct some assumptions. We're talking about the rogue/thief trading backstab, for a non-combat ability. That's it. That's what I was commenting on. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY AT ALL, NOT FOR A SINGLE SOLITARY MOMENT, has suggested that a thief no longer be able to wield a sword like normal, or a bow, or have their attack progression lowered, or force them to not take Dex as a key stat, or anything else relating to combat. We're talking about trading one special ability: sneak attack. So now that we've dealt with the majority of what I view as a strawman, you tell me why this rogue/thief would be useless and bored in combat without sneak attack? I played that in 3e (it was an option) and it was great. As for your four conflicting styles of PCs issue: I've had good DMs, mediocre DMs, and bad DMs. Every single good DM was able to adapt their game to give everyone a spotlight in the game, and nobody was ever bored, no matter what choices they made for their PCs. I challenge you to game with Kevin (Piratecat from this board) and make whatever friggen bizarre combo character you want, and team with a group that has equally "incompatible" PCs, and I promise you with 100% certainty everyone will have fun and nobody will be bored. Same goes for Kirin (Kiznit from this board), and a half dozen others I know of, some on this very board. I can't go into the details on how that is done in this thread...it's way off topic, but I think it might make for a worthwhile thread. But my simple answer is yes - you can have a great game, even with four players and their PCs who prefer different things from the game. In fact, it can be even more fun that way. [/QUOTE]

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