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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6178220" data-attributes="member: 42582">Who is suggesting that the Assassin would lose sneak attack? We're talking about alternate sub-classes, not changing extent sub-classes so that their abilities are in contradiction to their labels.My question (and it goes also to [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION]) - which I've raised with my example upthread of the illusionist - is what do you count as a combat ability?If Charm Person, Fog Cloud and Invisibility count as combat abilities in the hands of a wizard, then high CHA plus some class feature that exploits that, flash grenades and the ability to sneak and hide would all count as combat abilities for a rogue.Upthread people have talke about a rogue who can trip rather than sneak attack. For me, that is not at all comparable to the illusionist spell-loadout I've mentioned. Tripping is basically useful only in a fracas - whereas Charm Person, or Fog Cloud, are primarily useful in social and/or exploration contexts, with their combat use an added extra. At least for my part, this is what I would be looking for from a rogue who traded out sneak attack for some other ability suite.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6178220, member: 42582"] Who is suggesting that the Assassin would lose sneak attack? We're talking about alternate sub-classes, not changing extent sub-classes so that their abilities are in contradiction to their labels. My question (and it goes also to [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION]) - which I've raised with my example upthread of the illusionist - is what do you count as a combat ability? If Charm Person, Fog Cloud and Invisibility count as combat abilities in the hands of a wizard, then high CHA plus some class feature that exploits that, flash grenades and the ability to sneak and hide would all count as combat abilities for a rogue. Upthread people have talke about a rogue who can trip rather than sneak attack. For me, that is not at all comparable to the illusionist spell-loadout I've mentioned. Tripping is basically useful only in a fracas - whereas Charm Person, or Fog Cloud, are primarily useful in social and/or exploration contexts, with their combat use an added extra. At least for my part, this is what I would be looking for from a rogue who traded out sneak attack for some other ability suite. [/QUOTE]

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