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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 6178544" data-attributes="member: 23484">I think a big part of the problem (to take a step back) is that the niche of the rogue has been eroded significantly. Rather than identifying the ways that they fall between other classes (though sheadunne's analysis has a nice feel to it), I'd prefer to think about what rogues do.This thread is asking that question, essentially, but asking if their niche is "sneak attack". So what defines a rogue? The answer could be:a. someone who is fragile in combat but capable of high non-magical damage under the right circumstances (through e.g. sneak attack).b. skill monkey -- jack of all tradesc. sneaky guy or perhaps sneaky trap guyAll of these have been foregrounded in different ways in the past, and ot some extent all are jostling for position now. The problem (if there is one) with the implementation in DDN is that all of them are eroded with the simplified rules. c.: halflings and wood elves have considerable sneaking ability already. This leaves traps (undersupported in the playtest) and evasion/uncanny dodge type-abilities. Good, but the niche is eroded.b. skill monkey. With the simplification of skills to ability checks, this manifests itself in expertise dice. The default is with DEX checks, and the subclasses expand that (CHA and INT). That's good, but if you aren't playing (just reading) the flexibility that offers might not be clear. It's a powerful mechanic [and one that I think could helpfully define humans instead of the flat +1, as I have argued elsewhere], but it feels like weak sauce because (1.) its range of applicability is not spelled out, and (2.) there are other non-roguey ways to get expertise dice, again eroding the niche.a. Which leaves the fragile-but-with-conditional-high-damage situation. It's a good niche, complementing the fighter, but if it means that the rogue will sometimes be doing more damage than the default-martial class, then it needs to be circumstantial. This is what my suggestions upthread were aiming at. Does it happen when surprising? When the opponent is distracted? when fighting only with knives? One of the things that makes the rogue fun to play for me is that weapon choice matters very little -- when the circumstances are met, you can do almost as much damage with a dagger or a hand axe as you can with a great sword, and that's fun (for me). The player should have to work to meet the condition, however -- it simply can't be too easy to get; it has to change the default combat style. So: within the framework provided by the DDN rules currently, what do I want to see for the rogue?* a conditional way of being very effective in combat under certain conditions (with sneak attack being one available option)* a corresponding defensive ability (evasion/dodge) * a second background, for all rogues. (this is the out-of-combat benefit I'd most like to see; it was in the earliest test packs, and it was flavourful and fun)* some expertise die applicability not available to other classes * subclasses that allow thieving, charming, assassinating, etc. specialties. (but note the separation of charming from thieving)</blockquote>

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