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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 6178922" data-attributes="member: 2525">This issue was moved to the DM advice for setting DCs and modifiers, and the armor descriptions.  For example, mithril plate is called out as being easier to move in than plate, and plate is described as being bulky.  The DM then takes this into consideration when setting DCs and penalties for particular climbing challenge the PC decides to attempt.  It's no longer a flat penalty or flat alteration to the DC, as it would depend on the circumstances (climbing up a steep path won't be as harmed by plate armor, than climbing up a cliff face, as the later requires much more movement flexibility than the former).All the heavy armor, and many of the medium ones, give disadvantage to stealth checks.  This is, obviously, an issue for many fighters, but not an issue for many rogues.  Sure, and those are abilities of those races, not the class, and it's class we're debating.  Of course they can attempt it, and I never even hinted at the possibility that they could not - so quit strawmanning me.  I said rogues are BETTER AT those things.  That's an important aspect of the rogue - and always has been.Right, because as I mentioned earlier mithril plate is called out as special - it's a special ability of that special armor - not the cleric.  Similarly, a rogue who can use a feather token to grow a tree can grow a tree - but that's because he has a special item that can do that - not because rogues can grow trees in an instant.  So no, the Cleric cannot normally sneak so well - normally they are wearing heavy armor and sneaking with disadvantage.  Second, Dex is the key stat to sneaking, which the rogue has and the cleric usually does not.Finally, and most importantly, the rogue gets to add their Expertise dice to the check, something the Cleric cannot do.  So yes, the rogue is BETTER AT sneaking, by far, than the Cleric.  It's even right there in their special abilities as a rogue under Expertise.I find it odd you dismiss the rogue's ability to sneak better than others (where they add a die to their sneak check that nobody else gets to add), but then pretend their ability to sneak attack is unique (where they add a similar die to their damage roll).  If adding a die to a roll is special, then it's just as special for their sneaking, as it is for their damaging.  But, that analysis does give insight to where you're focused - it seems (from that comment) that the game is more about doing damage for you, than anything else.Scale mail also gives disadvantage to sneak checks.  And I hardly think "he can carry around a spare set of armor and change into it" is a rationale situation for most times this comes up in a game.  And every PC can do damage.  Every single one.  It's just that the rogue can do some things BETTER THAN others, which was my argument.  The only argument in support of sneak attack is that it does BETTER damage, not that the damage is somehow unique.  Damage is a generic thing all classes do, just like climbing and sneaking.  It's just that some classes do it better than others.  See my point now?Seriously, stop insulting your peers because you disagree with them.  I've read the rules, you've read the rules, let's debate the rules and not the people.  I'm not bashing you for you not knowing scale mail also grants disadvantage to sneaking, for example.  Let's just debate our perspectives.</blockquote>

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