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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6179007" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't have a definite answer to that question. But as I indicated to [MENTION=12037]ThirdWizard[/MENTION] upthread, more often than &quot;never&quot; would be a good start.If we are locking rogues into a certain sort of build because we're worried that other options will lead players into traps they can't get out of, let's tackle the real issue - rigidity in non-caster PC build rules - rather than accept the needless rigidity and on that basis exclude meaningful fantasy tropes from our fantasy RPG.How do you use expertise dice to get reliable benefits? Via social rules. Via stealth rules. Via distraction rules. Via evasion rules (of the classic D&amp;D variety). The same sort of way that a wizard uses Charm Person, or Fog Cloud, to avoid violence or to bring violent clashes to a close.My preference for the base rogue would be this: clerical attack and hit dice. (At the moment the attack bonus is the same, but hit dice are too low and there is no extra attack at 8th). The rogue would then rely on stealth (and resultant bonuses/advantage) to get chance to-hit onto a par with the fighter. Damage would be lower than the fighter, but that is part of a &quot;three pillars&quot; trade off; in social or exploration the fighter would be weaker than the rogue.Turning the rogue into a 4e-style swashbuckler would certainly be one viable sub-class, and at that point damage might be on a par with the fighter. And an assassin, who can surpass fighter damage under stealth conditions, is another viable sub-class. But I don't think these should be the default.Burning Wheel has a range of resolution mechanics for a wide variety of combat and non-combat situations.D&amp;Dnext, as advertised at least, is meant to be about the &quot;three pillars&quot;. My views on what the rogue should look like tack that as a premise.If in fact D&amp;Dnext is going to be a game that (like 4e) treats combat as the pre-eminent site of combat reslution, but with 2nd ed AD&amp;D-style combat mechanics, then I'm personally not that interested.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6179007, member: 42582"] I don't have a definite answer to that question. But as I indicated to [MENTION=12037]ThirdWizard[/MENTION] upthread, more often than "never" would be a good start. If we are locking rogues into a certain sort of build because we're worried that other options will lead players into traps they can't get out of, let's tackle the real issue - rigidity in non-caster PC build rules - rather than accept the needless rigidity and on that basis exclude meaningful fantasy tropes from our fantasy RPG. How do you use expertise dice to get reliable benefits? Via social rules. Via stealth rules. Via distraction rules. Via evasion rules (of the classic D&D variety). The same sort of way that a wizard uses Charm Person, or Fog Cloud, to avoid violence or to bring violent clashes to a close. My preference for the base rogue would be this: clerical attack and hit dice. (At the moment the attack bonus is the same, but hit dice are too low and there is no extra attack at 8th). The rogue would then rely on stealth (and resultant bonuses/advantage) to get chance to-hit onto a par with the fighter. Damage would be lower than the fighter, but that is part of a "three pillars" trade off; in social or exploration the fighter would be weaker than the rogue. Turning the rogue into a 4e-style swashbuckler would certainly be one viable sub-class, and at that point damage might be on a par with the fighter. And an assassin, who can surpass fighter damage under stealth conditions, is another viable sub-class. But I don't think these should be the default. Burning Wheel has a range of resolution mechanics for a wide variety of combat and non-combat situations. D&Dnext, as advertised at least, is meant to be about the "three pillars". My views on what the rogue should look like tack that as a premise. If in fact D&Dnext is going to be a game that (like 4e) treats combat as the pre-eminent site of combat reslution, but with 2nd ed AD&D-style combat mechanics, then I'm personally not that interested. [/QUOTE]

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