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<blockquote data-quote="Starfox" data-source="post: 6183638" data-attributes="member: 2303">In 4E the rogue was a &quot;martial&quot; class because it was not supernatural. The term has nothing to do with fighting prowess. It is an origin, not a role. Yes, the 4E rogue could fight decently well, but that was not what the term &quot;martial&quot; was about. If Next had martial as a power origin, the rogue would once again fit there.There was never a martial controller in 4E, something that I and some others thought was a lack. There were several threads here about it back in the day, and there seemed to be a consensus (which I did not agree with) that class abilities (powers in the 4E nomenclature) should not involve gadgets. Gadgets is equipment, not abilities. This made it very hard to make a martial controller class for 4E, and I suppose for every edition of DnD. To replace Sneak Attack with controller-y gadgets, those gadgets need to be competitive at all levels, which means they need to be much better than mundane equipment is generally allowed to be in a DnD-based game. But still I think that 4E was more forthcoming for this because of it's power structure - I think that trying to do the same for other editions would be even harder, both to do and to get people to accept.I did make a serious attempt to build a martial controller for 4E, but interest here was very slight. I invented a &quot;gadget&quot; keyword for their powers, which let me use the standard power format for 4E and still let the powers be mundane. I suppose it could be robbed of it's powers to make a new class for Next, but as I say above, it feels really hard to do. And I am not sure that class would be a rogue.<a href="http://hastur.net/wiki/Martial_Controller_%284E%29" target="_blank">http://hastur.net/wiki/Martial_Controller_(4E)</a></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Starfox, post: 6183638, member: 2303"] In 4E the rogue was a "martial" class because it was not supernatural. The term has nothing to do with fighting prowess. It is an origin, not a role. Yes, the 4E rogue could fight decently well, but that was not what the term "martial" was about. If Next had martial as a power origin, the rogue would once again fit there. There was never a martial controller in 4E, something that I and some others thought was a lack. There were several threads here about it back in the day, and there seemed to be a consensus (which I did not agree with) that class abilities (powers in the 4E nomenclature) should not involve gadgets. Gadgets is equipment, not abilities. This made it very hard to make a martial controller class for 4E, and I suppose for every edition of DnD. To replace Sneak Attack with controller-y gadgets, those gadgets need to be competitive at all levels, which means they need to be much better than mundane equipment is generally allowed to be in a DnD-based game. But still I think that 4E was more forthcoming for this because of it's power structure - I think that trying to do the same for other editions would be even harder, both to do and to get people to accept. I did make a serious attempt to build a martial controller for 4E, but interest here was very slight. I invented a "gadget" keyword for their powers, which let me use the standard power format for 4E and still let the powers be mundane. I suppose it could be robbed of it's powers to make a new class for Next, but as I say above, it feels really hard to do. And I am not sure that class would be a rogue. [url]http://hastur.net/wiki/Martial_Controller_%284E%29[/url] [/QUOTE]

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