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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 2900990" data-attributes="member: 23619">Hyp, I'm still going to disagree on that, and go a step further by stating that the Sage was correct with his initial sentence but then the reasoning he uses is incorrect and goes the other way. In the example given at the beginning of the thread (Werewolf w/DR 10/silver), let's say a fighter and a rogue are attacking it. Fighter (Str 18, weapon spec, weapon is shortsword): Attacks, hits, does 6hp damage with the sword, +4 from Str and +2 from WS, for a total of 12 hp. Two points over the DR, so only 2hp are actually inflicted from a blow that would have obliterated a goblin or orc. Rogue (Str 10, SA +2D6, weapon is shortsword): Attacks, hits, does 6hp damage. This is well under the DR, so no damage inflicted. The rogue decides to attempt a SA (ideally, while the above fighter is attacking). His attack hits, but, again, his attack can do only 6hp damage. DR is not limited to certain parts of the anatomy, so any attack used against it has to exceed or bypass the DR regardless of where the attack lands. The attack cannot get through the werewolf's DR, so the SA damage does not get delivered. It would be the same as trying to SA a werewolf through a brick wall. The aim is good, but if the attack can't get through, it's not going to hurt the enemy. Now, if that same Rogue had Str 14, Power Attack and tried a SA, it could be different. Rogue attacks, uses PA for -3 to hit, +3 damage, still hits. Rogue does 6hp with shortsword, +2 for Str, +3 for PA. That's 11 hp, 1 hp over the werewolf's DR. The attack caused the werewolf damage and since it did, the Rogue's SA allows him to inflict let's say an extra 10hp damage. Because the rogue was able to damage the werewolf in a vital spot, he was able to make use of the SA and inflict more damage than someone else would have. The attack form itself has to cause damage to deliver the SA damage. The very first line of the Sage's response implicitly states this, while the rest goes off in a different direction. The SA provides bonus damage. Not increases damage, not inflicts extra damage, but provides bonus damage. To have bonus damage, there has to be some damage inflicted to begin with. Or think of it this way: To get a bonus on your paycheck, you have to have a paycheck first. Or like a snake. You don't get poisoned if the snake's bite doesn't damage you. Sneak Attacks were never special effects, the second paragraph is just a red herring to throw off the direction of the issue.</blockquote>

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