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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jontherev" data-source="post: 289778" data-attributes="member: 1451">Uhh actually no. i never brought multiclassing into it. i was comparing a rogue using a wand of ray of frost at mid-level using UMD to a rogue with TWf or rapid shot against high armored characters. I wads doing this because more than one post had brought up the myth that TWf/RS and the multiple sneak attacks produced WAY MORE damage than th ray of frost one shot per round option. I felt this grossly ignored the hit chances and so i compared EXPECTED damage to get a reasonable estimate (Again, the argument presumes HIG ARMOR on the targets.)[/B]</blockquote>It's not a myth, it's a fact.  You are biased.  Melee foes are not always highly armored creatures.  Besides, after you take into account stuff like Weapon Finesse, Cat's Grace/Gloves of Dex (having a +7 dex bonus is overkill to the touch attack, but not with a dagger), and other minmaxed stuff, the difference in the attack roll can be marginalized quite a bit, which lessens even more when you consider eventually making 5 or 6 attack rolls vs. just one (add another to that 5 or 6 if you want to include haste).  Not to mention a few cool items in MoF, like the Mask that gives you a bite attack (another potential sneak attack) and the dagger that acts as a Chill Touch (NASTY rogue weapon).  That last one (a weapon my pc would like<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />) should make a few of you wince in pain.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  A full attack action using touch attacks + sneak attacks (assuming the conditions were met)!I play a mc'ed rogue/wizard/fighter/ranger/temple raider (please, no ignorant munchkin comments...unless you've played in our campaign and read his background, you haven't a clue) myself, who is geared towards melee/flanking.  Sure, I've used Ray of Frost a few times, but it is NEVER as effective as melee is.  At 12th level, I get 4 attacks/round with my ring of blinking and Expert Tactician.  By 15th level, he'll take ITWF and gain another iterative attack, for a grand total of 6 attacks, 7 if hasted.  8 if I get that Fanged Mask doohickey.  Oh, and most of these are at my highest BAB, minus 2.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  However, our party fights non-crittable foes all the time, so I probably only get to sneak attack 25% of the time.  Maybe even less than that.  So, a great deal of the time, I am just rolling (and rolling and rolling...) a LOT for the miss chances and attack rolls, and all I get for that (right now) is a possible (1d4+str+weapon enhancement)X4.  Also, I've lost out on a lot of skill points, which the party never ceases to rag me on.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f621.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":mad:" title="Mad    :mad:"  data-smilie="4"data-shortname=":mad:" />  I ASSURE you, I'd rather take my chances on the 20% miss chance, AND the 3 or 4 attack rolls I'll get, than fire off one Ray of Frost.  I have good hitpoints too; like I said, he's good in melee.  I just wouldn't waste my time with the Ray Wand.  I pull it out against fire creatures sometimes, but even then I am often more effective just going into melee.  That Chill Touch dagger might be a bit too good, but that's easily bannable as a house rule.  Anyway, this a little bit of personal experience of playing a wizard/rogue/fighter type over 12 levels.  If my pc was more geared towards missile fire, then he'd be better off taking 4 or 6 bowshots imo.  YMMV.Here's the math for my pc:  W/Cat's Grace, he usually has a +7 Dex bonus (could be +8 if 4 is rolled), +8/3 BAB, 2 +2 daggers, +2 flanking, +2 invisible/blinking...equals a +21 to hit.  Also, sometimes the cleric will cast prayer/bless or something to boost that a bit higher.  Let's assume a 30 AC here (10 from Fullplate +2, 4 from a Shield +2, +1 Dex, +3 Ring of Protection, +2 Amulet of Natural Armor).  So, that's a touch AC of 14.  My damage on an attack is 1d4 +2str+4d6SA=average 18.5.  With the Ray, I can expect to do 1.75+14=15.75 damage, 14.875 on a successfull save.I get 4 attacks on a full attack, at +19/19/19/14, vs. the +17 with the Ray of Frost.  So, with the Ray, I can expect to do .95x15.75=14.9625, and 14.13125 if the save is made.  With the daggers, it is more complicated.I have a 50%/50%/50%/25% chance of hitting, but while blinking, these go down to 40/40/40/20%.  So, I can expect to do:.4x18.5x3 + .2x18.5 = 25.9.  Now, add in crits, and this number increases much more in relation to criting with a ray.  Correct me if my math is wrong, but this seems like a no-brainer to me.  And, it only gets worse when I get more attacks.  Granted, this is specific to my PC, but then, that's all that really matters now isn't it?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  Note, that we like high magic campaigns, so we probably have more than the listed treasure in the DMG.  However, the monster's are that much nastier, so it balances out.  For example, I scored that sweet ring of blinking after we barely managed to defeat a vampire with whirlwind attack who wore it and nearly killed our entire 7 member party single-handedly.  We were about 7th level, maybe 8th.Now, the Arcane Trickster is a different story.  Many feel that class is overpowered.  I haven't actually read it, so I can only comment on what I've heard through the boards.  It doesn't seem overly powerful to me to be able to cast a spell at 75% or so of the power of a normal wizard, just to get one (maybe 2) sneak attack(s) off.  You can't cast as well as a wizard (never will), and you can't attack or use skills as well as a rogue.  It's a neat combo, but doesn't seem to be too much.  I could be wrong, as we have never playtested this class.As for this rogue, he's gonna stick to daggers, hope, and good luck.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />And Petrosian, in my example before, I was pointing out the weaknesses of sneak attack (touch or non-touch) to show that it isn't overpowered in ANY form.  That's quite relative to a discussion on the balance issue of a specific form of sneak attack.  Also, I listed Dispel Magic to use against invisibility, NOT for use against a silly Ray (a wasted readied action).  Also, there's another addition to the list, in Dust of Appearance.  I'm sure many mid-high level fighters will be carrying around a pouch or 2 of this.  Ok, I'm done.[crowd roars][/QUOTE]

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