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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 289924" data-attributes="member: 1149">[/B]</blockquote>yes i am biased. When i run math and SEE a result in cold hard numbers, I tend to believe it.Ok lets try this slowly. Against non-armored foes, a rogue will not use his "works good against armored guys" tricks. Against non-armored foes, he will use his "works good against non-armored foes tricks. "Keep up. buying the wand did not cost the rogue his swords and bows, just 375 gold. Against foes where the wand is not a good choice he will use those. The whole point of this thread is that the 375 gold wand against heavy armor foes is too good too cheap and way too easy.Ok well lets see if i can work thru this mess.First, I counted finesse.Second, i worked with a 20 dex for a 10th level rogue. That seemed reasonable. If you take a sec and look at the "representatives of their race and class" iconic PCs from WOTC you will see that their 10th level HALFLING rogue has a 21 dex.Now maybe in your games this 20 dex is more appropros for 2nd level and by 10th we should expect dexs of 36 or so, but i am not using your house escalations for general discussion. Clearly a campaign with escalated stats way beyond those given as "representative" will likely produce different results.Third, adding haste into the picture? OK fine you got it. Haste adds one more swing to the already 3 swings for the brawler or bowman. it adds another ray to the other side. The ray guy DOUBLES his offense with a haste, the brawler/bowman increases it by less than a third. (it would help if you guys at least did some math, just a little, before making claims based on faith or wishes.)Fourth: i was not assuming we were in the realms. If you wish to limit your argument to just that one setting, thats your choice.Fifth, about allowing all sorts of wonderful magic items. i used significantly less money to buy items for the opposition. With defenses cheaper than offenses, deciding to need to have much more magic items to support your false religion is probably gonna get you no where. You will notice i am also only spending the 375 gold for the lowest power wand. Consider what a wand of twinned ray of frost, a wand of repeating ray of frost, and their ilk would do.but enough of that silliness.Actually i am getting clues, right left and sideways. They practically seep from every sentence.I really do not have much to say, except that, maybe perhaps just a little your specific campaign oddities, your campaign being so different that EVEN YOU SAY we would have no clue about it, might mean your results are a little off the norm.I can readily admit that in a campaign scaled like you describe, the more typical results might not be applicable at all.Minor quibble number 1: the average damage of the ray is 2, not 1.75.Minor quibble number 2: the assumption that someone else provides you with boosting spells.Minor quibble number 3: you have defintiely upped the magic level for items while ignored easy and cheap ones. Your defender has over 40k in defensive items but not anything as simple as a haste potion? Clearly another campaign difference. In my game he would be AC 34/18t after adding in the lowly 750 gold for the potion or maybe even the 8k for boots of speed and lower the ring to +2 for a 33/17t.As an aside, the full attack requires you to alrwady be in position, in my campaigns, full attacks are not guarantees. But we can proceed.Yes of course, When discussing balance issues on a public forum campaign specific balances in a campaign you yorself say we will have no clue about should be the only things used. With an argument like that, i am flumoxed.Brief note, if we do add just a little haste potion, 750 gold vs the 40k etc you like to presume, your numbers turn into... 30/30/30/5 for something like 15 or so damage. Add  a haste potion to both sides and the wand damage doubles (two shots) while yours goes up by about 6 for the extra swing.So it seem the no brainer you are so happy with in your "classic" example is tossed asunder by just a 750 gold potion.... even after some 40k of toys.Really? i never would have guessed. However, even as clueless as you think we are, i gotta say that i still expect you to understand that scaling like this might in some small way skew the relative effectiveness of various tactics? Gosh... a vampire at 7th level pcs? Man i am so impressed, you campaign is sooo cool.I fugure with +5 vorpal daggers and +5 bracers of armor and +5 necklace of natural armor and then some real serious gear he could probably come close in your games. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />When in doubt, luck.Thanks, We all needed to know senak attack has weaknesses so we could compare the two sneak attacks. And we are all grateful.Thank you for your clear and wonderfully on topic post.We can now all add, as a given, except in whatshisnames type of campaign, to the remainder of our discussion.You have done us such a great service, we will eternally be in your debt.[/QUOTE]

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