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<blockquote data-quote="Nail" data-source="post: 1884302" data-attributes="member: 224">Errr???Perhaps what you mean is: &quot;Now that you've added some details, your question makes perfect sense.&quot;&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp;That is to say: &quot;OM allows you to hide in the square next to an opponent.&nbsp; If combat has not begun, and that opponent is flat-footed, you might be able to step into the opponent's square (via grapple or size Tiny) and sneak attack him.&quot;That's what you mean, right?&nbsp;Not quite.You have concealment (a mechanical term within the game rules).&nbsp; This means that attackers have a 20% miss chance.&nbsp; If you have Total Concealment (another rules term), that miss chance rises to 50%.&nbsp; IOW, there is no such thing as &quot;50% concealment&quot;.Here's the real point of contention (if there is any arguement at all to be had in this thread).&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool&nbsp; &nbsp; :cool:"&nbsp; data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" />&nbsp; Is there any RAW that says, one way or another?IMO, you gain no concealment from those sharing your space (in your square or squares).Not true.&nbsp; You do gain AoOs versus those with Concealment.&nbsp; You might be thinking of Total Concealment.Moreover, since the only way this entire scenario would work is if the opponent was flat-footed....they won't get AoOs....unless they have the feat Combat Reflexes!.....In fact, grappling is the only way such a thing could happen....there is not another alternative (barring size differences)Wha???????&nbsp; yer mixing-and-matching some stuff there, bub.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&quot;Becoming aware of you&quot; has nothing (nada, zip, zero, zilch) to do with it.The only way to sneak attack while within a grapple is if the enemy is flat-footed (at the beginning of combat).&nbsp; The opponent you grapple, even though he rolled an opposed grapple check, is still flat-footed....until his regular turn comes up. After the flat-footed thing is over, there's no way to sneak attack within a grapple.Here's the text:That is to say: &quot;Before you can enter his space, you must initiate a grapple.&nbsp; In order to initiate a grapple, you must make a melee touch attack from your original square -- hence, the miss chance from concealment.&quot;Clear enough.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nail, post: 1884302, member: 224"] Errr??? Perhaps what you mean is: "Now that you've added some details, your question makes perfect sense." ;) That is to say: "OM allows you to hide in the square next to an opponent. If combat has not begun, and that opponent is flat-footed, you might be able to step into the opponent's square (via grapple or size Tiny) and sneak attack him." That's what you mean, right? Not quite. You have [i]concealment[/i] (a mechanical term within the game rules). This means that attackers have a 20% miss chance. If you have [i]Total Concealment[/i] (another rules term), that miss chance rises to 50%. IOW, there is no such thing as "50% concealment". Here's the real point of contention (if there is any arguement at all to be had in this thread). :cool: Is there any RAW that says, one way or another? IMO, you gain no concealment from those sharing your space (in your square or squares). Not true. You do gain AoOs versus those with [i]Concealment[/i]. You might be thinking of [i]Total Concealment[/i]. Moreover, since the only way this [i]entire scenario[/i] would work is if the opponent was flat-footed....they won't get AoOs. [size=1]...unless they have the feat Combat Reflexes!.....[/size] In fact, grappling is the [u]only[/u] way such a thing could happen....there is not another alternative (barring size differences) Wha??????? yer mixing-and-matching some stuff there, bub. :) "Becoming aware of you" has nothing (nada, zip, zero, zilch) to do with it. The only way to sneak attack while within a grapple is if the enemy is flat-footed (at the beginning of combat). The opponent you grapple, [i]even though he rolled an opposed grapple check[/i], is still flat-footed....until his regular turn comes up. After the flat-footed thing is over, there's [u]no way[/u] to sneak attack within a grapple. Here's the text: That is to say: "Before you can enter his space, you must initiate a grapple. In order to initiate a grapple, you must make a melee touch attack from your original square -- hence, the miss chance from concealment." Clear enough. ;) [/QUOTE]

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