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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gaiden" data-source="post: 1887870" data-attributes="member: 103">I think you are getting caught up in the convention of the rules.  The designation of combat rounds is arbitrary because it is based on a convention.  Think of it this way.  You could just as easily run an entire game in combat rounds (except for the absolutely arduous amount of time it would take) in which case there would never be another surprise round again.  The combat scheme is made for convenience and flatfooted while being a condition is a simplification for the start of combat.  It amounts to nothing more than being unable to react as you would if you were completely aware of your opponent.Surprise while a defined term in D&D that deals with the start of combat can also be used descriptively.  If there is a combat between X and Y and I am Z and neither X nor Y know about me yet, I can surprise them (whether or not you want to follow the rules and put me at Iniative 20+mod or not is irrelevant).  I would still be "surprising" X and Y.  More importantly I would be surprising them in the same fashion as one could have suprised the other before X and Y engaged in combat.  Sure, the rules don't say that X and Y are flatfooted anymore, but come up with a logical reason why there is any difference between when X and Y engaged combat and when Z engages X and Y and they just happen to be in combat with eachother.By the way, let's end this discussion of 5' away nonsense.  The concealment from obscuring mist starts at the squares adjacent to you.  If you have any question as to that ruling, consider the exact working of the RAW as unintentionally misleading or ambiguous and that the actual rule is as above.  There is no debate about this.</blockquote>

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