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<blockquote data-quote="Shayuri" data-source="post: 4048997" data-attributes="member: 4936">Heya Mori! Welcome back, by the way.It's a thorny problem, not the least of which because I think your goals are...well, a little unfocused. Do you want to do damage, or be roguey, or have great illusions? I think two out of three is easy enough...all three is tricky.That said, I've played Beguilers at low to high levels, and they're not bad. The spell list is actually really good, but takes getting used to.For damage, look at the Whelm series. It's nonlethal damage, but that's actually GOOD in many cases. It puts baddies down just as fast (usually), and leaves 'em alive for questioning. Also, collateral damage is a nonissue. And no pesky big blast of flame to alert folks. The downside is that it's mind effecting. But really, that's not any worse than sneak attack...and the Whelm spells will do more damage than your character's SA would.Beguilers also have better DC's, by focusing on an important stat (Int) and giving bonuses from Cloaked Casting. With gnome bonus and using the feat you have for Master Spellthief on Spell Focus: Illusion, and your opening DC's will be 16 for a 1st level spell, and that's withOUT Cloaked Casting. A DC 17 Color Spray can put a serious dent in non-Will focused foes, even over CR5.The Beguiler spell list also features staples like Mage Armor, Glitterdust, various useful divinations that spontaneous casters often have to neglect, and to top it off, they have Use Magic Device as a class skill, meaning you'll be using wands to gain access to any spell you want later on.I haven't played Spellthieves much, so I can't -compare- them, but for what you're looking at, I really suggest giving the Beguiler a second look.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Shayuri, post: 4048997, member: 4936"] Heya Mori! Welcome back, by the way. It's a thorny problem, not the least of which because I think your goals are...well, a little unfocused. Do you want to do damage, or be roguey, or have great illusions? I think two out of three is easy enough...all three is tricky. That said, I've played Beguilers at low to high levels, and they're not bad. The spell list is actually really good, but takes getting used to. For damage, look at the Whelm series. It's nonlethal damage, but that's actually GOOD in many cases. It puts baddies down just as fast (usually), and leaves 'em alive for questioning. Also, collateral damage is a nonissue. And no pesky big blast of flame to alert folks. The downside is that it's mind effecting. But really, that's not any worse than sneak attack...and the Whelm spells will do more damage than your character's SA would. Beguilers also have better DC's, by focusing on an important stat (Int) and giving bonuses from Cloaked Casting. With gnome bonus and using the feat you have for Master Spellthief on Spell Focus: Illusion, and your opening DC's will be 16 for a 1st level spell, and that's withOUT Cloaked Casting. A DC 17 Color Spray can put a serious dent in non-Will focused foes, even over CR5. The Beguiler spell list also features staples like Mage Armor, Glitterdust, various useful divinations that spontaneous casters often have to neglect, and to top it off, they have Use Magic Device as a class skill, meaning you'll be using wands to gain access to any spell you want later on. I haven't played Spellthieves much, so I can't -compare- them, but for what you're looking at, I really suggest giving the Beguiler a second look. [/QUOTE]

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