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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 9580532" data-attributes="member: 6677017">Okay, I'll give you details. I don't expect (or want) these to change your general impression. Fans of certain elements see their presence or absence more strongly than those who are indifferent to those elements. I expect that you notice the absence of the things you like about 4e, and don't notice the gradual introduction of 4e elements that you are indifferent about or don't see as defining parts of 4e. For someone who doesn't like some of these elements, they very much stand out to me.And I should note, that my attitude is not the same for every element I'll bring up. The presence of the collection of the ones I dislike is a strong contribution to my personal deal-breakers for 2024. However, I am indifferent to some of these points. The list isn't "what I dislike about 2024", it is "things in D&D post 2014 that are shifts to being more like 4e". I will stick to things that are as objectively observable as possible. You, will in some cases, be able to find limited amounts of some of these in the original 5e PHB, DMG, or MM, in which case the change is one of relative quantity. Others are completely absent from the original 5e and showed up some time afterwards.NPC StatblocksIn original 5e NPC statblocks were essentially simplified versions of PC class characters. They didn't have all the features. Their hit points were a little higher, but they they lacked damage mitigation features like Second Wind or Uncanny Dodge, so it evened out if you assumed it represented those features. But they cast spells in the same way, used the same weapons, etc. With extremely rare exceptions (only one major one comes to mind in the MM) they did not have features for which PC classes and feats couldn't provide equivalents, unless there was a supernatural explanation like being a demon cultist, etc. They were slightly simplified ways of presenting the same kinds of features that PCs had. You could take an NPC statblock and rebuild it as an actual PC and you wouldn't lose any "NPC-only" special abilities.1Here's how this evolved to include more 4e elements.-NPC hit points increased significantly2, much like NPCs in 4e had relatively more hit points than PCs compared to earlier editions.-Spellcasting on NPCs intended to represent completely normal spellcasters is now presented as a monster ability unlike PC spellcasting, granting them capabilities that PC casters cannot attain.3-NPC statblocks have attacks4 and weapons5 that PCs have no way of gaining or approximating.PresentationVarious elements of presentation, whether functional or cosmetic, have shifted to be more like 4e.-Monster entries in the 2024 Monster Manual look significantly more like the entries in the 4e Monster Manuals than the entries in the 2014 MM look like the 4e MMs.6-Spells in the 2024 PHB have shorter formats, excising some lore and flavor in favor of using key words.-Class entries in the 2024 PHB greatly reduce the word count of the opening prose, and add a new initial "Core Features" table very reminiscent of the "Class Traits" table I'm looking at in the 4e PHB.-The 2024 DMG order of presentation has DMing advice and Running the Game sections at the start, like the 4e DMG (in contrast with the 2014 DMG that has most of that in the last part and opens instead with world-building), and even replaces the chapter name "Dungeon Master's Workshop" with the exact 4e name "DM's Toolbox".-More information presented in formats visually distinct from the standard text body, such as tables, in general. Just look anywhere and you'll see things that were just written out in prose in 2014 5e presented in a table in 2024.General Mechanics-Drinking potions is a bonus action in 2024, like it was in 4e.7-Monsters (similar to NPCs) have more unique supernatural attacks and features in place of standard spellcasting.-Summoning actual creatures using the same monster statblocks you would encounter is mostly8 eliminated. In its place you either create effects, or unique summon statblocks that live inside the spell itself and presumably are not encountered "naturally" in the wild, so to speak.-Adding magical properties to weapons sometimes straight up replaces their damage rather than adding to it.9-The Bloodied condition.Those are all elements that I didn't have to think hard about. There are others that are more philosophical (and therefore less objectively provable), and others that I'm not recalling off of the top of my head, but notice when I see them.Again, these may not matter to 4e-fans who don't consider those defining 4e traits, but for those who specifically disliked (and I would assume also for those who liked) 4e partly for some of those elements, it very much stands out as a shift towards 4e.1 - For example, the Veteran and Knight are simplified 5th-level fighters, the Assassin is a simplified 7th-level TWF Assassin Rogue with wyvern poison (see DMG p. 258). The Mage is a simplified 9th-level wizard, while the Archmage is a simplified 18th-level Abjurer wizard. The one stand out exception is the Priest, which is a simplified 5th-level cleric, but has a paladin-like smite ability that no clerics have any way of gaining access to.2 - For example, the Archmage goes from 99 hit points to 170, and the Assassin goes from 78 to 97.3 - My "favorite" (because it was the first one I was really paying attention to and stood out like crazy) example among the universal codified changes is the NPC sorcerer (based on highest level spell known, one might assume 10th-level, but there is no way of knowing) Kelek from Wild Beyond the Witchlight. He not only uses the new spellcasting format that eschews spell slots in lieu of At-Wills (which can include non-cantrips, but don't in his case) and X/Day spells, he also has a unique Sorcerer's Bolt spell that does as much damage as a scaled cantrip (at his assumed possible level), but which he can cast three times in a round, for a total at-will damage output of 6d12. Most 2024 NPC casters have similar "super-cantrip" like attacks.4 - The revised Assassin now makes three attacks (rogue's can't do that) and their damage values are ad hoc monster design rather than weapons plus sneak attack plus poison configurations. The originally simplified 4th-level Lore bard from Volo's Guide to Monsters, which in the Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse version now not only has the new monster spellcasting, but can make two attacks with a bow (bard's can't do that), potentially replacing one with casting any spell in their trait, and a brand new fairly significant combat ability not found in any bard subclass then or since. 5 - See, for example, how various Githyanki and Githzerai (which are PC species) NPCs get to add large amounts of psychic damage to their weapon attacks.6 - Just open all 3 books up to "Azer". I haven't read through the 2024 MM, but I assume it's a fairly typical entry. The 5e version has almost half a page of lore written in prose with a few bold text blurbs beginning paragraphs, and a statblock, the Azer. The 4e MM has a little bit of lore, 5 statblocks (from Azer Warrior to Azer Beastlord), and some set off gaming information like the exact lore you get with a skill check DC, and encounter groups. The 2024 MM has one sentence of general lore, two statblocks, and some gaming material set off (Habitat and Treasure). In the statblocks themselves, 2024 has Initiative and a Passive Perception entry, similar to 4e's Initiative and Perception entries.7 - Technically a minor action in 4e, of which the 5e bonus action is the analog.8 - Maybe entirely.9 - See Pact of the Blade, or the True Strike cantrip.</blockquote>

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