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So 5th edition is coming soon
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5515662" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>See, maybe explaining what you are trying to say instead of repeating "show me" 5 different times might actually work...</p><p></p><p>FORMAT in my mind is secondary, especially at the level of pure presentation of information. For the record I hate the format WotC uses, I think it just stinks, but I don't think it has a lot to do with the character of the adventures themselves. It isn't irrelevant, but something like B2 could be presented in the modern format. I agree it would be a step down, but probably for different reasons than those you're proposing. </p><p></p><p>The actual organizational and thematic differences between say B2 and H1 are smaller than one might think. B2 is in theory a bit more non-linear, but given that the players have little information on what they will encounter in any given area the non-linearity amounts to "pick a cave, any cave". The main part of H1 only gives you one 'cave' but beyond that the differences are mostly in pacing. The one big cave is slow to get through, the many little caves of B2 mean the party returns to base more often (though even with H1 there's nothing really preventing this). Earlier parts of H1 are also pretty non-linear, you can go to the dig site or the kobold lair at whatever point you wish, or skip them entirely.</p><p></p><p>Really, when I consider a more sophisticated style of adventure that is really different I would look to things like Court of the Shadow Fey, or the Stolen Land APs for PF where the entire plot is integrated deeply into the adventure and informs every encounter. "Here's a dungeon full of enemies to slay" rarely rises to that level and the vast majority of the 'classic' 1e era modules are exactly that.</p><p></p><p>I don't know what printing of G1 you have, there's not even the slightest hint of any alternative ways to approach the adventure in the original version. The module starts with the PCs dropped on the doorstep of the Steading after a couple intro paragraphs which basically boil down to "giants are bad guys, slag them!" There are a couple ways into the 'dungeon' and given that the party is intended to be around 12th level they're quite likely to have magic etc that will let them come up with other creative ways in etc, but nothing of the sort is even hinted at in the adventure itself. It is purely a sequence of set-piece encounters. Now and then an area might note that its occupants will move to another location under certain circumstances. Not even the hill giant chief has any specific motivations or personality defined, and there is one plot hook leading you on to the second module which is entirely transparent.</p><p></p><p>Now, people have done all kinds of different spins on this basic material, but all the G modules AS WRITTEN are pure dungeon crawl devoid of any meaningful plot etc. The concept of "giants are raiding the kingdom and must be thwarted" has plenty of potential, but the material presented had to be much more fleshed out to create are deeper adventure (which was presented in a later reworking as I recall, not a module generally listed amongst the classics). </p><p></p><p>So in short, your definition of 'delve' apparently doesn't cover the early classic modules, but we can safely consign most of them to the 'pure dungeon crawl' genre, and we then see that H1 is, for example, pretty much in the same vein. As I said earlier, standards are higher today. G1 was a great success and became a classic in its day. H1, not really materially different, is derided as a brick today.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5515662, member: 82106"] See, maybe explaining what you are trying to say instead of repeating "show me" 5 different times might actually work... FORMAT in my mind is secondary, especially at the level of pure presentation of information. For the record I hate the format WotC uses, I think it just stinks, but I don't think it has a lot to do with the character of the adventures themselves. It isn't irrelevant, but something like B2 could be presented in the modern format. I agree it would be a step down, but probably for different reasons than those you're proposing. The actual organizational and thematic differences between say B2 and H1 are smaller than one might think. B2 is in theory a bit more non-linear, but given that the players have little information on what they will encounter in any given area the non-linearity amounts to "pick a cave, any cave". The main part of H1 only gives you one 'cave' but beyond that the differences are mostly in pacing. The one big cave is slow to get through, the many little caves of B2 mean the party returns to base more often (though even with H1 there's nothing really preventing this). Earlier parts of H1 are also pretty non-linear, you can go to the dig site or the kobold lair at whatever point you wish, or skip them entirely. Really, when I consider a more sophisticated style of adventure that is really different I would look to things like Court of the Shadow Fey, or the Stolen Land APs for PF where the entire plot is integrated deeply into the adventure and informs every encounter. "Here's a dungeon full of enemies to slay" rarely rises to that level and the vast majority of the 'classic' 1e era modules are exactly that. I don't know what printing of G1 you have, there's not even the slightest hint of any alternative ways to approach the adventure in the original version. The module starts with the PCs dropped on the doorstep of the Steading after a couple intro paragraphs which basically boil down to "giants are bad guys, slag them!" There are a couple ways into the 'dungeon' and given that the party is intended to be around 12th level they're quite likely to have magic etc that will let them come up with other creative ways in etc, but nothing of the sort is even hinted at in the adventure itself. It is purely a sequence of set-piece encounters. Now and then an area might note that its occupants will move to another location under certain circumstances. Not even the hill giant chief has any specific motivations or personality defined, and there is one plot hook leading you on to the second module which is entirely transparent. Now, people have done all kinds of different spins on this basic material, but all the G modules AS WRITTEN are pure dungeon crawl devoid of any meaningful plot etc. The concept of "giants are raiding the kingdom and must be thwarted" has plenty of potential, but the material presented had to be much more fleshed out to create are deeper adventure (which was presented in a later reworking as I recall, not a module generally listed amongst the classics). So in short, your definition of 'delve' apparently doesn't cover the early classic modules, but we can safely consign most of them to the 'pure dungeon crawl' genre, and we then see that H1 is, for example, pretty much in the same vein. As I said earlier, standards are higher today. G1 was a great success and became a classic in its day. H1, not really materially different, is derided as a brick today. [/QUOTE]
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