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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5515840" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yes, and oddly enough there are no fighter or rogue powers which allow you to fly. Strange how that works... Now, a fighter can easily gain flight in any number of ways, but not through a class feature, nor in any fashion that is specifically limited to martial characters.</p><p></p><p>Rogues do have a single teleport power, Mountebank's Flight, level 22 encounter utility power which allows you to teleport adjacent to an enemy when THEY teleport. Pretty limited, but admittedly it exists.</p><p></p><p>Dragon 395 contains the ONLY two teleport powers for fighters, as part of an article on a specific Essentials Knight build designed to emulate the Swordmage. Maybe they should have just called the powers Arcane and had done with it, but honestly I find this at best a mole hill, not a mountain...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except as I've demonstrated above this is a perception, not the truth. Are there some things that some people will object to as 'too magical to be martial'? I'm sure there are, but in the VAST majority of the cases of these kinds of complaints you find that the perception is actually inaccurate. I think it arises because all classes have powers and once you've read 100's of powers all you really have in your head is a general impression and details of the ones you really paid attention to, which you most often can't even recall until it comes up again. I mean, honestly, I too would have guessed there were a number of flight powers in martial off the top of my head. 4e has actually kept the line of separation pretty clean.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, maybe. OTOH I don't think it is too dire a situation if there is a spell or ritual that will let a wizard gain some strength or leap further than normal once in a great while. I'd note that the powers which are commonly available for that purpose are unlikely to make the wizard exceed the ability of a well-trained fighter, and Jump at least IIRC can be cast on the fighter anyway. Plus there are just those situations where your fighter is not available or everyone needs to jump, etc. Being able to expend a daily type resource to do that now and then, when the fighter can do it all day every day, doesn't seem too out of line to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, the high damage strikers ARE pretty much martial (you can cook up some others, but they hardly seem radically out of place to me and note that the main one which is only marginally a weapon user is the Avenger). I won't disagree that the more significant controllery type stuff is probably better kept mostly out of martial. OTOH it IS to a large extent, certainly in heroic tier. There are a couple powers that are exceptions to that. Personally I don't have a real problem with them, Blinding Barrage IS a bit silly from a simulationist standpoint, but it is one power and hardly represents the whole game nor in my mind implies that a major mechanical reworking of the game is required. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe healing potions could have been redesigned. I think the reason they didn't want them overshadowing normal healing capabilities was just that (at least IMHO) the "oh, I have to drop some healing potions now so the party can keep going" was cheesy. Instead there is a built in function to do that, which a PC has to give up a standard action to use, a heavy penalty in a fight (unless you're a dwarf). In fact in my experience DMing 4e I've seen characters other than the dwarf use SW only a handful of times when things got really desperate and they were just hanging on for dear life. I think that's exactly what the devs envisaged it to be, that desperation tactic that you pull out in the "Oh, Kord, I'm about to die, gotta hang on another round!" situation. I think it is a great mechanic.</p><p></p><p>One thing I have tended to do is just use the paragon healing potions now and then. I've given one out rarely, but when they're used they feel quite magical, whereas the heroic tier ones are a toss up as to being worse than SW once you hit 5th level or so. Maybe they should have brought them down to levels 1/11/21 instead of 4/15/25.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5515840, member: 82106"] Yes, and oddly enough there are no fighter or rogue powers which allow you to fly. Strange how that works... Now, a fighter can easily gain flight in any number of ways, but not through a class feature, nor in any fashion that is specifically limited to martial characters. Rogues do have a single teleport power, Mountebank's Flight, level 22 encounter utility power which allows you to teleport adjacent to an enemy when THEY teleport. Pretty limited, but admittedly it exists. Dragon 395 contains the ONLY two teleport powers for fighters, as part of an article on a specific Essentials Knight build designed to emulate the Swordmage. Maybe they should have just called the powers Arcane and had done with it, but honestly I find this at best a mole hill, not a mountain... Except as I've demonstrated above this is a perception, not the truth. Are there some things that some people will object to as 'too magical to be martial'? I'm sure there are, but in the VAST majority of the cases of these kinds of complaints you find that the perception is actually inaccurate. I think it arises because all classes have powers and once you've read 100's of powers all you really have in your head is a general impression and details of the ones you really paid attention to, which you most often can't even recall until it comes up again. I mean, honestly, I too would have guessed there were a number of flight powers in martial off the top of my head. 4e has actually kept the line of separation pretty clean. Well, maybe. OTOH I don't think it is too dire a situation if there is a spell or ritual that will let a wizard gain some strength or leap further than normal once in a great while. I'd note that the powers which are commonly available for that purpose are unlikely to make the wizard exceed the ability of a well-trained fighter, and Jump at least IIRC can be cast on the fighter anyway. Plus there are just those situations where your fighter is not available or everyone needs to jump, etc. Being able to expend a daily type resource to do that now and then, when the fighter can do it all day every day, doesn't seem too out of line to me. Well, the high damage strikers ARE pretty much martial (you can cook up some others, but they hardly seem radically out of place to me and note that the main one which is only marginally a weapon user is the Avenger). I won't disagree that the more significant controllery type stuff is probably better kept mostly out of martial. OTOH it IS to a large extent, certainly in heroic tier. There are a couple powers that are exceptions to that. Personally I don't have a real problem with them, Blinding Barrage IS a bit silly from a simulationist standpoint, but it is one power and hardly represents the whole game nor in my mind implies that a major mechanical reworking of the game is required. Maybe healing potions could have been redesigned. I think the reason they didn't want them overshadowing normal healing capabilities was just that (at least IMHO) the "oh, I have to drop some healing potions now so the party can keep going" was cheesy. Instead there is a built in function to do that, which a PC has to give up a standard action to use, a heavy penalty in a fight (unless you're a dwarf). In fact in my experience DMing 4e I've seen characters other than the dwarf use SW only a handful of times when things got really desperate and they were just hanging on for dear life. I think that's exactly what the devs envisaged it to be, that desperation tactic that you pull out in the "Oh, Kord, I'm about to die, gotta hang on another round!" situation. I think it is a great mechanic. One thing I have tended to do is just use the paragon healing potions now and then. I've given one out rarely, but when they're used they feel quite magical, whereas the heroic tier ones are a toss up as to being worse than SW once you hit 5th level or so. Maybe they should have brought them down to levels 1/11/21 instead of 4/15/25. [/QUOTE]
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