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So 5th edition is coming soon
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5516127" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I didn't specifically check rangers, though I doubt in general they are singled out for a special number of such powers. In any case the Hellborn Shadow PP is a rather specific thing, with fluff that surely indicates the powers it provides are not exactly 'mundane'. You could argue they should have a different power source, but really are we nitpicking the system that much? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, so when your fighter decides to take up spell casting, he's not strictly doing mundane non-magical stuff anymore... Kinda stands to reason to me. As I said above there are admittedly some PP powers that could arguably have different power source keywords, but since power source has virtually no mechanical significance (and never existed in previous editions where there was a greater distinction between casters and non-casters either) I'm not losing a lot of sleep over it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except 'healing' covers a lot of territory, given that hit points are, and always have been, a highly abstract resource. Warlords heal by sheer force of will to motivate characters who's own reserves of luck, determination, and endurance have been depleted. Notice the PC receiving the healing STILL has to have HS to benefit. It isn't like you can resurrect the dead, or even someone who is really truly totally spent. Personally I think of HS much the way hit points were thought of in previous editions. As long as you have some, you're going to be able to go on, providing you can find a way to dig in.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why can't a highly trained and motivated warrior induce his opponent to step sideways 5'? Why can't he for that matter draw in said opponent to closer range? I don't see any real problem with any kind of forced movement being within the purview of the martial power source at all. Honestly it is hard to find a condition that would seem illogical for a warrior to be able to produce. Petrified is about it. Stun, daze, blind, immobilize, prone, all seem quite feasible and don't imply anything beyond situations which could easily exist in real life. </p><p></p><p>I understand people get wigged by things like Come and Get It, which can produce results at times which leave some players uneasy. It has been discussed enough times in the past I don't think it needs to be rehashed again. I guess the question is if these relatively few powers seem unacceptable to people at a given table then why don't they just not play with them? MANY, if not most, players enjoy them and appreciate that they exist. I'm not convinced that nerfing fighters down to 'do damage' really is better for the game, nor really fair to the people that want them.</p><p></p><p>Now, I'd be OK with some kind of mechanical way to partition some things into a bin that is 'stuff that is highly implausible without magic' somehow to support more play styles, that would be fine. Of course nobody will EVER agree on exactly what belongs in that bin, so maybe it is one best erected by each group to suite their own tastes, I dunno...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Eh, I'm not saying that potions of healing are totally cheesy. I'm saying the rate at which they had to be acquired or produced and consumed in previous editions got to be kind of ridiculous. It doesn't even vaguely correspond with anything in heroic fantasy outside of gaming (where I have never yet encountered healing potions). They are VERY 'gamist' in my mind, and in a way that can't be easily fluffed over. Finding one now and then in some treasure, quaffing one once in a blue moon? Yeah, no problem with that. The 10 healing potions per level downed by the average mid-level AD&D character was a bit much. And yeah, the wand of CLW was just sick. </p><p></p><p>So really, I don't think we disagree much on this. I'd be OK with healing potions getting a bit stronger. They could probably just give you one HS worth of healing, basically a Second Wind for a minor action (maybe they make your beard grow and your legs shorter...). I think the reason they were not that good before was to discourage parties from simply making oodles of them and being able to burn surges left and right at little real cost. There had to be a way to let them scale in price too as at paragon the level 4 potion is trivially cheap. You'll have to deal with that issue before letting them return an HS, but at least nowadays getting a bare HS back isn't so good.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are times when it is better than nothing, and potions have saved a few PCs lives in my game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, things have evolved some yes, but again it is there as a backstop so that a character always has a way to get at least SOME healing at some point in every combat regardless of how things go. It may be a sub-par option, but when your cleric is on the floor bleeding and you have 3 enemies around you? It suddenly starts seeming a lot better...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think there were discussions of the reasons for specific rules on consumables of various kinds back a ways. The thing was, like with other items but more so, once the PCs are allowed to easily make consumables they HAVE to be limited enough that higher level characters with tons of them don't end up being stupidly overpowered. Actually, now that they are mostly uncommon, they could be revamped somewhat. Personally I think the 'you can craft anything' concept was the real error in 4e design to start with. It ROYALLY screwed up the design space for items of all kinds, not just consumables. </p><p></p><p>I mean, if I were going to design a 5e, I would SURELY go with something like the current crafting system with rarity. You could take it a bit further by say actually specifying a magical ingredient that would be needed for each uncommon item if someone wants to craft it, that would be cool. Then the items themselves could be entirely redone. I'd get rid of about 75% of them, consolidate similar ones into one item with possibly a couple of powers, etc. I guess basically I don't worry about consumables, they are just a wart on that pig. In any case I've actually found that the party will use them pretty effectively in some situations. At least in my games they were generally not a major big thing even back in the old days anyway, so I guess I don't really see a huge difference in how things work out.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5516127, member: 82106"] I didn't specifically check rangers, though I doubt in general they are singled out for a special number of such powers. In any case the Hellborn Shadow PP is a rather specific thing, with fluff that surely indicates the powers it provides are not exactly 'mundane'. You could argue they should have a different power source, but really are we nitpicking the system that much? Sure, so when your fighter decides to take up spell casting, he's not strictly doing mundane non-magical stuff anymore... Kinda stands to reason to me. As I said above there are admittedly some PP powers that could arguably have different power source keywords, but since power source has virtually no mechanical significance (and never existed in previous editions where there was a greater distinction between casters and non-casters either) I'm not losing a lot of sleep over it. Except 'healing' covers a lot of territory, given that hit points are, and always have been, a highly abstract resource. Warlords heal by sheer force of will to motivate characters who's own reserves of luck, determination, and endurance have been depleted. Notice the PC receiving the healing STILL has to have HS to benefit. It isn't like you can resurrect the dead, or even someone who is really truly totally spent. Personally I think of HS much the way hit points were thought of in previous editions. As long as you have some, you're going to be able to go on, providing you can find a way to dig in. Why can't a highly trained and motivated warrior induce his opponent to step sideways 5'? Why can't he for that matter draw in said opponent to closer range? I don't see any real problem with any kind of forced movement being within the purview of the martial power source at all. Honestly it is hard to find a condition that would seem illogical for a warrior to be able to produce. Petrified is about it. Stun, daze, blind, immobilize, prone, all seem quite feasible and don't imply anything beyond situations which could easily exist in real life. I understand people get wigged by things like Come and Get It, which can produce results at times which leave some players uneasy. It has been discussed enough times in the past I don't think it needs to be rehashed again. I guess the question is if these relatively few powers seem unacceptable to people at a given table then why don't they just not play with them? MANY, if not most, players enjoy them and appreciate that they exist. I'm not convinced that nerfing fighters down to 'do damage' really is better for the game, nor really fair to the people that want them. Now, I'd be OK with some kind of mechanical way to partition some things into a bin that is 'stuff that is highly implausible without magic' somehow to support more play styles, that would be fine. Of course nobody will EVER agree on exactly what belongs in that bin, so maybe it is one best erected by each group to suite their own tastes, I dunno... Eh, I'm not saying that potions of healing are totally cheesy. I'm saying the rate at which they had to be acquired or produced and consumed in previous editions got to be kind of ridiculous. It doesn't even vaguely correspond with anything in heroic fantasy outside of gaming (where I have never yet encountered healing potions). They are VERY 'gamist' in my mind, and in a way that can't be easily fluffed over. Finding one now and then in some treasure, quaffing one once in a blue moon? Yeah, no problem with that. The 10 healing potions per level downed by the average mid-level AD&D character was a bit much. And yeah, the wand of CLW was just sick. So really, I don't think we disagree much on this. I'd be OK with healing potions getting a bit stronger. They could probably just give you one HS worth of healing, basically a Second Wind for a minor action (maybe they make your beard grow and your legs shorter...). I think the reason they were not that good before was to discourage parties from simply making oodles of them and being able to burn surges left and right at little real cost. There had to be a way to let them scale in price too as at paragon the level 4 potion is trivially cheap. You'll have to deal with that issue before letting them return an HS, but at least nowadays getting a bare HS back isn't so good. There are times when it is better than nothing, and potions have saved a few PCs lives in my game. Well, things have evolved some yes, but again it is there as a backstop so that a character always has a way to get at least SOME healing at some point in every combat regardless of how things go. It may be a sub-par option, but when your cleric is on the floor bleeding and you have 3 enemies around you? It suddenly starts seeming a lot better... I think there were discussions of the reasons for specific rules on consumables of various kinds back a ways. The thing was, like with other items but more so, once the PCs are allowed to easily make consumables they HAVE to be limited enough that higher level characters with tons of them don't end up being stupidly overpowered. Actually, now that they are mostly uncommon, they could be revamped somewhat. Personally I think the 'you can craft anything' concept was the real error in 4e design to start with. It ROYALLY screwed up the design space for items of all kinds, not just consumables. I mean, if I were going to design a 5e, I would SURELY go with something like the current crafting system with rarity. You could take it a bit further by say actually specifying a magical ingredient that would be needed for each uncommon item if someone wants to craft it, that would be cool. Then the items themselves could be entirely redone. I'd get rid of about 75% of them, consolidate similar ones into one item with possibly a couple of powers, etc. I guess basically I don't worry about consumables, they are just a wart on that pig. In any case I've actually found that the party will use them pretty effectively in some situations. At least in my games they were generally not a major big thing even back in the old days anyway, so I guess I don't really see a huge difference in how things work out. [/QUOTE]
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