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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5520455" data-attributes="member: 2011">First, I don't have to justify it IC. You seem to be really hung up on that. Players justifying the actions of their PCs. That really is a form of the DM trying to take control for something he doesn't understand. Don't worry about that.Second, if I felt like justifying it, it's pretty simple. It's a pit trap (or a well or whatever) into water. There's a chance that one or more other creatures fell into it sometime since it was built. OOC, it's a either a trap or an NPC source of water that the DM put into the encounter just last night when prepping the game. IC, it's potentially a whole lot more, an object that might have been there for decades with a history. If creatures have ever fell into it, then there's a chance that there is treasure, a key, gems, or all kinds of things at the bottom. Or even nothing.There could be a side shaft leading to a monster that the bad guys in the room above feed by dropping victims or enemies into it.It could be the way to a hidden treasure vault. Nobody thinks to have to swim to the treasure vault.It's a physical exit from the room that is unaccounted for until my PC searches it and the DM tells me that it does not continue on and even then, I might send the better perception Rogue down to check it out.As a PC, my character doesn't know. But, there's a good chance that many of the types of PCs that I play (or one of their allies) would go check it out to find out.I don't limit my gaming exploration to 2 dimensional grids. My PCs look up at ceilings, look behind doors, check out shafts and potential exits.I play explorers, not just combat monsters (well, they are combat monsters too, but that's not the only thing they are).Well, I've played the game for over 3 decades and just gave you a few possibilities (what you called justifications) above for something that you totally didn't see coming.Gaming experience counts a lot when playing and making PC decisions. I haven't seen it all, but I've seen a lot.You really should try to get over this player justification thing. It's a mental block to other possibilities and other ways to have fun. Players have different amounts of experience playing the game, different mental abilities, and different motivations for playing. You don't need to know what the player (or the PC) is thinking, only what the PC is doing, unless of course there is a magical way for NPCs to read the PCs mind or some such, or if the PC is attempting to Bluff, then the player should tell you that if you cannot figure it out on your own.As DM, players shouldn't have to justify to you. Hence, be a referee, not a director. Directors need to know tiny motivations and how the actors stand and which foot is in front of the other and all kinds of tiny details. DMs don't. They just need to have the world react to the actions of the PCs in a reasonable manner and how the world is acting outside the influence of the PCs. They don't need to know why the PCs are doing what they are doing. For the big stuff (I'm saving the princess because I'm a Paladin), they'll already know and for the small stuff (I'm searching the pit with water in it), it doesn't matter. And they don't need to try to strongly influence the PCs actions via OOC communications to the players either.I've also seen a lot of players pipe up OOC in game with what their PC is thinking as well. Personally, I'm not too keen on that. I'm not reading a book. My PC shouldn't know what his PC is thinking and neither should I. It will unduly influence my thought processes and hence, my PC. If his PC tells me what he is thinking IC, great. Not OOC.But for me, roleplaying is best when everyone doesn't know what everyone else is thinking. Then, the game has mystery and unexpected things can happen. Nothing wrong with the PCs saying what's on their minds, but IC (where possibly, NPCs can overhear them or at least know that they are whispering), not OOC. I've seen a lot of games where the players discuss combat tactics OOC quite a bit as well and I'm not too keen on that either. A little bit, no problem. But, players and DMs should let each player play his or her own PC the way he or she wants without the dictionary of OOC advice (unless of course the player is a novice, then the other players should sometimes offer advice, but they should be careful not to overdo it).</blockquote>

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