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So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats
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<blockquote data-quote="Iron Sky" data-source="post: 4740987" data-attributes="member: 60965"><p>We've played from level 1 to our current level of 13, and I would say the fights get easier for the most part, not harder. Sure the monsters throw out more status effects, but the players do even more.</p><p></p><p>Let me preface this post with the fact that our characters are rolled, not point buy. Several of us started with 2 (or 4 in the case of our fighter) 18s. That said, the DM stopped throwing any encounters lower than N+1 at us long ago.</p><p></p><p></p><p>To take last night's game I played in for example, we had three combats.</p><p></p><p>Fight 1 vs Solo Huge Spider. 3 rounds. By the end of the first round it had the following status effects: Quarry, Curse, Cold vulnerability, -6 AC, Stunned, Blind, Divine Challenge. Round 2: Quarry, Curse, Cold vulnerability, Dazed, Weakened. Round 3: Dead. It got off 2 attacks, 1 of which missed. Our party lost 1 surge.</p><p></p><p>Fight 2 was complicated. Split party, traps, archers behind arrow slits 50' away... Cost us about 6-8 surges total amongst the party for 1 wounded goblin and 2 dead chull?(giant lobster thingies). This was probably the toughest encounter we've run into since we hit Paragon.</p><p></p><p>Fight 3 vs 2 Shadow Oozes(Elites). 3 rounds. Second round, one was dazed, the other was stunned(and dazed and weakened, amongst other things). Third round both died. Total party cost: 3 surges.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In 13 levels of 4e, I'd say status effects make the combat, not damage - and this only gets more true as the levels go up. If the PCs get their status effects in place first, the fight is easy, often a cakewalk. If the enemy gets theirs in place, it might be difficult. In my experience, fight difficulty is largely determined by the number of monsters that impose status effects.</p><p></p><p>Large enemy HP do little to make fights longer, unless that monster is also effective at dazing/weakening/etc the party. Few monsters have hit hard enough to make outright damage the primary threat.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Anecdotes aside, as I'm about to start a campaign myself, I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this. The idea of a monster hitting on a 2 seems wrong somehow, but in fights last night we had the paladin and rogue both hit an enemy elite with a 3... and this without Expertise (we just got PHP2, making level 14's feat choice an obvious one for most of us).</p><p></p><p></p><p>With these defense feats at least, they aren't auto-picks for most of us. </p><p>My ranger picks feats with one consideration: damage. Used to have TWD, but ditched it at Paragon(when our two defenders joined).</p><p>The warlock picks any feats that augment her control powers or damage.</p><p>The Cleric has most of the Dragonborn feats and a smattering of random others. He does have light shield prof for defense.</p><p>All three of us have the Wintertouched-Lasting Frost combo.</p><p>The rogue selects feats based on mobility and damage.</p><p>The Fighter picks mostly damage feats. He has plate prof and spec, but that's about it for defenses.</p><p>The Paladin has shield spec. The rest are pally feats and a random smattering of others(hammer rhythm, dwarven weapon prof, etc).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Even at +4 untyped, I don't see myself getting the epic feats with my ranger. Maybe will since it's 6 points behind my AC (and will be about 8 points behind by Epic). In a well balanced, tactical party, everyone doesn't <em>need</em> good defenses.</p><p></p><p>If I get hit by a 2 by some big nasty controller solo, it doesn't matter if he never attacks me 'cause the pally has him locked down the whole fight. The defenders may pick them up, but I don't see our leader or the striker trio more than cherry-picking on or two.</p><p></p><p>Expertise is a different matter, however...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Iron Sky, post: 4740987, member: 60965"] We've played from level 1 to our current level of 13, and I would say the fights get easier for the most part, not harder. Sure the monsters throw out more status effects, but the players do even more. Let me preface this post with the fact that our characters are rolled, not point buy. Several of us started with 2 (or 4 in the case of our fighter) 18s. That said, the DM stopped throwing any encounters lower than N+1 at us long ago. To take last night's game I played in for example, we had three combats. Fight 1 vs Solo Huge Spider. 3 rounds. By the end of the first round it had the following status effects: Quarry, Curse, Cold vulnerability, -6 AC, Stunned, Blind, Divine Challenge. Round 2: Quarry, Curse, Cold vulnerability, Dazed, Weakened. Round 3: Dead. It got off 2 attacks, 1 of which missed. Our party lost 1 surge. Fight 2 was complicated. Split party, traps, archers behind arrow slits 50' away... Cost us about 6-8 surges total amongst the party for 1 wounded goblin and 2 dead chull?(giant lobster thingies). This was probably the toughest encounter we've run into since we hit Paragon. Fight 3 vs 2 Shadow Oozes(Elites). 3 rounds. Second round, one was dazed, the other was stunned(and dazed and weakened, amongst other things). Third round both died. Total party cost: 3 surges. In 13 levels of 4e, I'd say status effects make the combat, not damage - and this only gets more true as the levels go up. If the PCs get their status effects in place first, the fight is easy, often a cakewalk. If the enemy gets theirs in place, it might be difficult. In my experience, fight difficulty is largely determined by the number of monsters that impose status effects. Large enemy HP do little to make fights longer, unless that monster is also effective at dazing/weakening/etc the party. Few monsters have hit hard enough to make outright damage the primary threat. Anecdotes aside, as I'm about to start a campaign myself, I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this. The idea of a monster hitting on a 2 seems wrong somehow, but in fights last night we had the paladin and rogue both hit an enemy elite with a 3... and this without Expertise (we just got PHP2, making level 14's feat choice an obvious one for most of us). With these defense feats at least, they aren't auto-picks for most of us. My ranger picks feats with one consideration: damage. Used to have TWD, but ditched it at Paragon(when our two defenders joined). The warlock picks any feats that augment her control powers or damage. The Cleric has most of the Dragonborn feats and a smattering of random others. He does have light shield prof for defense. All three of us have the Wintertouched-Lasting Frost combo. The rogue selects feats based on mobility and damage. The Fighter picks mostly damage feats. He has plate prof and spec, but that's about it for defenses. The Paladin has shield spec. The rest are pally feats and a random smattering of others(hammer rhythm, dwarven weapon prof, etc). Even at +4 untyped, I don't see myself getting the epic feats with my ranger. Maybe will since it's 6 points behind my AC (and will be about 8 points behind by Epic). In a well balanced, tactical party, everyone doesn't [I]need[/I] good defenses. If I get hit by a 2 by some big nasty controller solo, it doesn't matter if he never attacks me 'cause the pally has him locked down the whole fight. The defenders may pick them up, but I don't see our leader or the striker trio more than cherry-picking on or two. Expertise is a different matter, however... [/QUOTE]
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