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So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 4741731" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Dude, I think you need to get out more and play in some games with DMs that are not so stuck on hack hack hack. You're missing 3/4 of the goodness of 4e if your games are 'mostly about attack rolls and damage rolls'. The rules looks skewed to you because you are only playing half a character.</p><p></p><p>I don't know what broken skill challenge you are talking about. Skill challenges work perfectly fine with the errata. There is NOTHING wrong with them. Just like encounter design, you have to make sure the challenge is properly designed. Is the combat system broken because an adult dragon will eat a 3rd level party? No, and neither is the skill challenge system broken because you can make impossible or auto success challenges.</p><p></p><p>And no, I am not going to stop making examples of roleplaying combat consequences because it IS one of the key things you are missing in your understanding of the numbers. Sorry, that is just the way it is. I'm not going to argue with you endlessly about, but you need to factor into your understanding of character balance the full choices players have. Your analysis is flawed if you don't take everything into account.</p><p></p><p>The truth of the matter is that the DMG encounter guidelines ARE just guidelines. A DM can make very bad encounters and follow the guidelines. I think we all know that. What I am suggesting is that if a DM is good and they understand all the things that must go into an epic level encounter to make it a good encounter, then well rounded characters can always have fun.</p><p></p><p>In your Kuo-Toa example the Barbarian should be able to use skills to help defeat the enemy. Maybe there is terrain he can use to only fight one monster. Party teamwork will help him too. The cleric can give him extra saves, the paladin can make the one monster he faces want to go fight someone else, etc. The encounter should also have a way for the Barbarian to use his big athletics skill to defeat the kuo-toa. Maybe he can push a rock onto them, or he can go past them to tip a container of acid on them, etc. There should be moving terrain or other terrain effects so he can keep away from their attacks if the player will use his head and not only hack with a weapon.</p><p></p><p>Now the PHB II feats let him also have the choice to boost his weak defense. Maybe he has a potion to do that too. If all numbers to hit are always close to a certain number then all he needs to learn to do is hack. The game is not any longer about anything except DPR and defenses and status effects. It is not so much fun. </p><p></p><p>The math is only broken if the RESULT of using the math is broken. If you use an example of a broken encounter with no stunting opportunity and no terrain factored in then it is the example that is unrealistic, not broken math. If the DM makes an encounter like that, it is a broken DM, not broken math! </p><p></p><p>There are other considerations too. Epic is not like heroic or paragon tiers. It should not be the same. If all levels play the same, then why have levels at all? Monsters WILL hit a lot more on the epic level of play. It is supposed to be that way. Once you hit high epic level there are also no more higher level monsters to fight. The equal level monsters now must be stronger vs the party because there is no level + 4 monster anymore at 27th level, no level + 3 monster at 28th level, not even a level + 1 monster (except Orcus) at 30th level. </p><p></p><p>Weak NADs are a feature of epic play. If the players are good then they will adapt to win.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 4741731, member: 82106"] Dude, I think you need to get out more and play in some games with DMs that are not so stuck on hack hack hack. You're missing 3/4 of the goodness of 4e if your games are 'mostly about attack rolls and damage rolls'. The rules looks skewed to you because you are only playing half a character. I don't know what broken skill challenge you are talking about. Skill challenges work perfectly fine with the errata. There is NOTHING wrong with them. Just like encounter design, you have to make sure the challenge is properly designed. Is the combat system broken because an adult dragon will eat a 3rd level party? No, and neither is the skill challenge system broken because you can make impossible or auto success challenges. And no, I am not going to stop making examples of roleplaying combat consequences because it IS one of the key things you are missing in your understanding of the numbers. Sorry, that is just the way it is. I'm not going to argue with you endlessly about, but you need to factor into your understanding of character balance the full choices players have. Your analysis is flawed if you don't take everything into account. The truth of the matter is that the DMG encounter guidelines ARE just guidelines. A DM can make very bad encounters and follow the guidelines. I think we all know that. What I am suggesting is that if a DM is good and they understand all the things that must go into an epic level encounter to make it a good encounter, then well rounded characters can always have fun. In your Kuo-Toa example the Barbarian should be able to use skills to help defeat the enemy. Maybe there is terrain he can use to only fight one monster. Party teamwork will help him too. The cleric can give him extra saves, the paladin can make the one monster he faces want to go fight someone else, etc. The encounter should also have a way for the Barbarian to use his big athletics skill to defeat the kuo-toa. Maybe he can push a rock onto them, or he can go past them to tip a container of acid on them, etc. There should be moving terrain or other terrain effects so he can keep away from their attacks if the player will use his head and not only hack with a weapon. Now the PHB II feats let him also have the choice to boost his weak defense. Maybe he has a potion to do that too. If all numbers to hit are always close to a certain number then all he needs to learn to do is hack. The game is not any longer about anything except DPR and defenses and status effects. It is not so much fun. The math is only broken if the RESULT of using the math is broken. If you use an example of a broken encounter with no stunting opportunity and no terrain factored in then it is the example that is unrealistic, not broken math. If the DM makes an encounter like that, it is a broken DM, not broken math! There are other considerations too. Epic is not like heroic or paragon tiers. It should not be the same. If all levels play the same, then why have levels at all? Monsters WILL hit a lot more on the epic level of play. It is supposed to be that way. Once you hit high epic level there are also no more higher level monsters to fight. The equal level monsters now must be stronger vs the party because there is no level + 4 monster anymore at 27th level, no level + 3 monster at 28th level, not even a level + 1 monster (except Orcus) at 30th level. Weak NADs are a feature of epic play. If the players are good then they will adapt to win. [/QUOTE]
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