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So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats
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<blockquote data-quote="Bayuer" data-source="post: 4742486" data-attributes="member: 61817"><p>@James McMurray</p><p>I don't forbid you to post, just to make it on topic. Anyway I don't replie on most of you text, couse it will make discussion stay not on topic. Btw Orcus was an example of another person, and I just pointed him, that his recharge power is deadly. The same wiht epic destinies features that gives you something when you drop to 0hp. We never discused it, you make it as an argument, but it is just not important. We talking still about feats from PHB2 and PCs defenses.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You say that you're fine with autohit from monsters, ok. That's your choice. But saying over and over, that it's what designers was thinkig about from beginnig is wrong:</p><p>1) The feats from PHB2 egzist. They are now in play. They are much stronger than anything before them (I'm talking about NADs feats) and they placed just fine to the math gap I'm still talking about.</p><p>2) When you look at the math with works ok with AC and scales with level, and compare it to NADs, you can see that ther's something wrong. Even worse, the NADs attack are better than AC attacks, becouse they offten do some damage, and place effects on PCs. Well, I gave you examples above, but treat MM as references here.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok. Player takes all def feats and expertise. You're saying now that he don't have options and is boring? One don't exculde other. With defense feats from PHB2 your player will not have less fun. He will have much more fun, couse he will know that Orcus will not hit him with his great power at 2 on die. He will have much more better combat experience when his attacks will hit offten (by offten I mean at almost 50% on roll). This is the same at heroic. Becouse you have better options characters wont die so offten as on heroic. Experience from game should be equal about chances to hit/being hit if the characters fight the same level monster.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Almost EVERY monster on epic have some effects with they attack powers. This was calculated to make monsters more challanging (that and better HPs) and the same philosopy is behind PCs powers. And, man. We don't talk about damage but hitting NADs and effects! You make more and more arguments about monster threat. What fights are we talking about. n, n+1, n+2? Thats easy fights, well designed can be dangerous but not at epic. Even n+3, n+4 fights can be easy to well equpied players, but then again: The feats are here, they are solution to math fix. Dot. </p><p></p><p>My and my players made a n+6 fight with Eladrins that give daze (end of encounter) and my barbarian was weakend (eoe). This fight was on 16 level if I remember it right. We have only 3 PCs (one was leader) and we win. Nobody died. But the fight takes about 3,5h! Becouse we are good tactic players we manage to win, but when you have such a boring fight, when monster hit you with nasty effects with no efforts and you have problems hitting enemies. That's boring!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok so we agree. Epic levels are broken. Finaly! PCs can hit more often - Expertise! Problematic conditions? Yeah. Let's redesigne all monsters and ignore that they can hit you on 2 on die. That's much better solution. And let's just say. It's ok to them to autohit if his at-will attack will dominate player just for one round. That will not change anything and I'm now suer you know that. Sorry, but the solution is already here. The defense hits.</p><p></p><p>You maybe lost in all this off-topic. The problem is not that the math is bad, couse it was fixed by PHB2 defenses and expertise feats. They way that this repair to 4E math was done, is the major problem. Anyway, I don't have more arguments to you. If you still want to have last word, go ahead, but you just will have to ignore to many things, thus logic to me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bayuer, post: 4742486, member: 61817"] @James McMurray I don't forbid you to post, just to make it on topic. Anyway I don't replie on most of you text, couse it will make discussion stay not on topic. Btw Orcus was an example of another person, and I just pointed him, that his recharge power is deadly. The same wiht epic destinies features that gives you something when you drop to 0hp. We never discused it, you make it as an argument, but it is just not important. We talking still about feats from PHB2 and PCs defenses. You say that you're fine with autohit from monsters, ok. That's your choice. But saying over and over, that it's what designers was thinkig about from beginnig is wrong: 1) The feats from PHB2 egzist. They are now in play. They are much stronger than anything before them (I'm talking about NADs feats) and they placed just fine to the math gap I'm still talking about. 2) When you look at the math with works ok with AC and scales with level, and compare it to NADs, you can see that ther's something wrong. Even worse, the NADs attack are better than AC attacks, becouse they offten do some damage, and place effects on PCs. Well, I gave you examples above, but treat MM as references here. Ok. Player takes all def feats and expertise. You're saying now that he don't have options and is boring? One don't exculde other. With defense feats from PHB2 your player will not have less fun. He will have much more fun, couse he will know that Orcus will not hit him with his great power at 2 on die. He will have much more better combat experience when his attacks will hit offten (by offten I mean at almost 50% on roll). This is the same at heroic. Becouse you have better options characters wont die so offten as on heroic. Experience from game should be equal about chances to hit/being hit if the characters fight the same level monster. Almost EVERY monster on epic have some effects with they attack powers. This was calculated to make monsters more challanging (that and better HPs) and the same philosopy is behind PCs powers. And, man. We don't talk about damage but hitting NADs and effects! You make more and more arguments about monster threat. What fights are we talking about. n, n+1, n+2? Thats easy fights, well designed can be dangerous but not at epic. Even n+3, n+4 fights can be easy to well equpied players, but then again: The feats are here, they are solution to math fix. Dot. My and my players made a n+6 fight with Eladrins that give daze (end of encounter) and my barbarian was weakend (eoe). This fight was on 16 level if I remember it right. We have only 3 PCs (one was leader) and we win. Nobody died. But the fight takes about 3,5h! Becouse we are good tactic players we manage to win, but when you have such a boring fight, when monster hit you with nasty effects with no efforts and you have problems hitting enemies. That's boring! Ok so we agree. Epic levels are broken. Finaly! PCs can hit more often - Expertise! Problematic conditions? Yeah. Let's redesigne all monsters and ignore that they can hit you on 2 on die. That's much better solution. And let's just say. It's ok to them to autohit if his at-will attack will dominate player just for one round. That will not change anything and I'm now suer you know that. Sorry, but the solution is already here. The defense hits. You maybe lost in all this off-topic. The problem is not that the math is bad, couse it was fixed by PHB2 defenses and expertise feats. They way that this repair to 4E math was done, is the major problem. Anyway, I don't have more arguments to you. If you still want to have last word, go ahead, but you just will have to ignore to many things, thus logic to me. [/QUOTE]
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