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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elric" data-source="post: 4744196" data-attributes="member: 1139">One might think WotC would fix problems through errata rather than feats, but they did create the Expertise feats which are, compared to Pre-PH II options, more overpowered than the FRW boosting feats.  As I have said repeatedly, the untyped bonus on Epic FRW, like the untyped bonus on the Expertise feats, screams "math fix."You seem to have two perspectives in this thread that are hard to reconcile; first, if FRWs scaled more appropriately but the PH II FRW boosting feats didn't exist, the game would be too easy, and secondly, that it's not even clear the PHII FRW boosting feats are worth taking.  I agree with you that taking Epic [weakest FRW] alone isn't as appealing as it might be because you're so far behind by default that the first +2 bonus might be wasted much of the time because you're still only missed on a natural 1.  However, due to Robust Defenses, a character spends 1 feat for +2 to each FRW, at which point even your weak FRW feat should generally be high enough that a +4 further bonus won't be wasted.  For your stronger two defenses, any pluses to FRW should matter from the start.  Is a +4 bonus to a FRW that will almost always matter against a relevant attack roll still too small to be taken?Suppose that a level 30 character post-PH II spent 4 feats on Robust Defenses and Epic FRW, compared to a pre-PH II character who spent 3 feats on Great Fort/Lightning Ref/Iron Will, but benefited from a very generous house rule (+1 to FRW at levels 5/15/25, plus boosting 3 stats at 4/8 levels).  Compared to the monsters over 29 levels, the post-PH II character is ahead 2 points in his two strong FRWs and behind 1 point in his weak FRW.  The house rule/PH feat character is ahead 1 in all his FRWs.  That means on average the characters are the same on FRW defense, and the post-PH II one has spent 1 more feat.Take out the 4/8 third attribute bonus and the pre-PH II character ends up having spent 1 fewer feat, but with 3 points lower total FRW.  So removing the PH II FRW feats and giving characters a +3 bonus to FRW doesn't leave the character who takes the Great Fort line of feats any stronger, really.  It might be the case that if you gave out +3 to FRWs and banned Robust Defenses/Epic FRW, characters would stop taking the remaining FRW boosters, and their character power would be higher than this comparison indicates.  I don't see that as a bad thing, though; it means that characters don't have to expend a significant number of feats to get FRW that scales more appropriately.AV has a lot of overpowered items that help trivialize the game (some of which are slowly being errata'd), but if you compare it to the PH it seems clear this was due to a lack of playtesting/bad design rather than a conscious desire to make items much more powerful than they had been in the PH.  I wouldn't count the Opal Ring of Remembrance, for example, as an indication that (some) characters hit enough at high levels on their own.</blockquote>

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