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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Regicide" data-source="post: 4747149" data-attributes="member: 67552">I contend you are.   What you quoted was specific and supported.  I said 10.    The ones that have actually played in epic do.Here, because I'm so nice...Rogue Rattling Strike (or any rattling)Paladin Enfeebling StrikeFighter markWizard Illisionary TerrainBlade Banshee hitting with 2 or more attacksBard Vicious Mockery  There is a potential -12 to hit with just class abilities or at wills.  That trick costs the party NOTHING.  No resources spent, no magic item bought, no feats to acquire it, no action points used, nothing, and almost all of it is available at level 1.  Action points, encounter powers and the like can push that number much higher, and several of them, the rogue in particular, can push that number another -4 or -6 for attacks targeting them.  Other powers such as dazing can help too.  The cheapness of that trick lets the party buy other things like AC lowering powers (much more common than lowering to-hit powers, it's practically trivial to lower AC by 10) or tricks, like...  slow + push powers that slow the target then push them out of combat so they can't even fight.  Stun powers to keep an opponent perma stunned etc.  But that is a different topic.</blockquote>