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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4747680" data-attributes="member: 2011">The key word here is "potential".To get the -12, all of these have to affect the same monster simultaneously. Most encounters have multiple foes, not a solo.But, just because I am nice, we'll assume a same level 25 solo controller, lurker, or skirmisher. We'll assume starting stat of 18 advance stat every time 25 stat (+7), +3 weapon proficiency, 1/2 level (+12) and +6 items = +28 versus (level + 16 solo) AC 41 or +25 versus other defense (level + 14 solo) 39.Paladin Enfeebling Strike: 40% chance of success. If the Paladin marks the target, the Fighter cannot also mark the target and since I am being nice, I'll give you the 100% chance of -2 Paladin mark plus 40% chance of the Paladin Enfeebling Strike.Fighter Mark: 0% chance of success. He cannot mark the same creature as the Paladin.Rogue Rattling Strike: I assume you are talking about Disheartening Strike. Let's assume a 100% chance of Combat Advantage here (generous to your POV). Let's assume a Dagger (+1). 55% of -2 (but dropped 8 to 10 points of damage from Sly Flourish).Wizard Illusionary Terrain: I assume you are talking about Illusory Ambush here. Int vs. Will. 35% of -2. Ranger Eladrin Blade Banshee (a very specific build): 40% * 40% = 16% of -2.Bard Vicious Mockery: Cha vs. Will. 35% of a -2.If instead of using Encounter and Daily powers, the entire party (except the Fighter and possibly the Ranger) use At Will powers, the debuff of the solo is:Attacking the Paladin: .4 * -2 + .55 * -2 + .35 * -2 + .16 * -2 + .35 * -2 = -3.62Attacking anyone else without attacking the Paladin: -2 + -3.62 = -5.62.This is against a same level solo. That is considered a standard n encounter. Not hard at all.The problem is that except for the Fighter or Paladin mark, these penalites are conditional (and even the marks are conditional on not including the defender in the attack). They do not occur every round. In fact, even if used every round (which would not be the case), they occur in a minority of rounds.If we do not consider a solo or an elite, then the chances of any given -2 increases by 10% due (except for Blade Banshee which increases by 8%) to the fact that such foes are at level +14 / level +12 instead. On the other hand, not all 6 PCs will be attacking the same foe either.If we consider a higher level encounter, these odds drop.So, the solo monster is at +3 due to the math bug and the PCs using debuffs and not other options give it -3.62 against the Paladin.Oh wait, you wanted the Battlerager Fighter in front instead. Ok, Enfeebling Strike is 0% (only works with a Paladin mark) because only the Fighter mark forces the solo to attack the Battlerager for a result of -2.82 against the Fighter.Your mega -12 in reality is a -2.82 and takes specific builds, actions, and level of solo to accomplish (higher level solos will not be penalized as much due to higher defenses). And in a more typical situation, not every PC is trying for a debuff (at least not in real games).Now, what happens if there are 6 same level standard foes against 6 PCs.6 opponents at +3 (math bug) = +18 overall versus 6 PCs that give: -2 (Fighter) -2.5 (Paladin) -1.3 (Rogue) -.9 (Wizard) -.5 (Ranger) -.9 (Bard) = +8.1 overall.The creatures get the +3 math bug on 100% of the attacks. The PCs get the -2 debuff for many of them, only if they hit the foe.Not looking as good with a more typical same level encounter. There are more bonuses for the foes (due to the math bug) than penalties (due to the debuffs).And the problem becomes even more pronounced for encounters higher level than the PCs.The math does not support your POV using YOUR selected powers and class features, even for an same level encounter (1 solo or 5 normal creatures).Your claim, not mine. So far, -2.82 to hit on average is FAR from "can't even HIT him in the first place".So far, you are not blowing anyone away with your examples.Would you like to try again? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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