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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4748156" data-attributes="member: 2011">True. On the other hand, a Wizard with Illusory Ambush is not even allowed in many campaigns. Several DMs I know do not allow Dragon material because it gets out of hand so easily, but I was giving him every break to prove his point.But Vicious Mockery is also psychic, so the Bard would get it.Yup.Course, replacing +6 weapons/implements with +5 in order to get +6 armor instead of +5 helps AC a lot, but hurts the other three defenses when debuffing. All debuffs drop by ~0.5.So, AC +2 or +3 becomes AC +1.5 and AC +2.5 whereas the other 3 defenses drop by 0.5 (assuming full debuff mode, -3.62 becomes -3.145). A slight gain for heavy armor, a total wash for light armor.One of the interesting things I see about the indirect splat book fixes for the math bug are that some of them actually make the game slightly harder to play.3 of the powers he picked were from the newer books: Disheartening Strike, Blade Banshee, and Bard Vicious Mockery. All 3 of these powers (and Illusory Ambush) require the players or DM to do bookkeeping as to whether a given foe has the penaty to hit or not.However, these are "until the end of my next turn" type powers. These are slightly more difficult powers to keep track of.The bookkeeping for powers which have a save is slightly easier. One puts some token on the miniature and at the end of the target's turn, the save is either successful or not. If so, the token is removed.Powers that affect until the end of the attacker's next turn have slightly heavier bookkeeping (something that I am positive that WotC never took into account, or they would have used a different model).The target has to keep track of WHICH opponent hit the target with each bonus, penalty, or condition.Let's take this example here of the solo vs. the 6 PCs. The order of initiative is:1 2 3 4 5 6 SIf every odd numbered PC succeeds with a hit that causes -2 until the end of the attacker's next turn, the solo (S) is at -6. The solo takes its turn and we are back to 1 who moves and provokes OA. Solo is at -6. Then 2 moves and provokes OA. Solo is at -4 because 1's end of turn occurred. Ditto for the rest of the PCs.One needs to keep track of the fact that conditions or penalties 1, 3, and 5 were on the solo and what condition or penalties were caused by which PC. If the group forgets who hit, they might accidently have the solo at -6 when PC 2 provoked OA.I noticed this phenomon when multiple NPCs who could all Daze (causing Combat Advantage) multiple PCs with area effects. Each PC could have been affected by differing actual attacks and it was important to not just bookkeep the condition, but to also bookkeep who caused the condition so that the PCs would come out of Daze at the proper time and no longer be providing CA.When the DM's creatures have these types of powers, it is easiest if the players keep track of which creature hit them bookkeeping. When the PCs have these types of powers, it is easiest if the DM keeps track of which PC hit which NPC bookkeeping. WotC simplified the condition system with the normal save mechanism, but actually added bookkeeping for conditions, bonuses, or penalties that occur until the end of the attacker's next turn. Opps.</blockquote>

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