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<blockquote data-quote="grickherder" data-source="post: 4701507" data-attributes="member: 68043">Say we multiplied the races by the classes (and their sub builds) and came up with a number of rough builds that one could make.&nbsp; What do you suppose the choice number would be for this feat for most of the builds?&nbsp; At what choice would it have to be in order for it to be considered a &quot;must have&quot; or &quot;broken&quot; or &quot;a patch disguised as a feat&quot;?&nbsp; First choice?&nbsp; Second?&nbsp; Fifth?&nbsp; Tenth?&nbsp; Fourteenth?My opinion is that if it's not first or second in the majority of the builds, it's not a must have/broken/disguised patch.&nbsp; Because if it's 3rd, or 5th or 8th or whatever, that's an awful lot of feats that beat it out.&nbsp; Even if 99% of characters out there end up with it by level 26 that means that up to 15 other feats beat it out for a player's choice before that +3 just became too tempting.Another thing to remember is that feats are tied to concept.&nbsp; I want to play a warlock/wizard gnome, for example.&nbsp; If I start off with expertise, I don't have the concept at all because I don't have the multiclass feat.&nbsp; I guess I could take it at second level, but then I have to wait on taking Fey Trickster to get the rest of the cantrips.&nbsp; I guess I could take it at fourth, but then I have to wait on Improved Misty Step.&nbsp; I guess 6th then, but then I can't take either Melee Training or Reaper's Touch so I can fight up close as well.&nbsp; Oh, 8th then.&nbsp; But wait a minute!&nbsp; I haven't even taken any power swap feats yet!&nbsp; And since I want to paragon multiclass, I need to take my 6th, 8th and 10th level feats as power swap feats.Must have <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/ponder.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":hmm:" title="Hmmm&nbsp; &nbsp; :hmm:" data-shortname=":hmm:" /> right...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="grickherder, post: 4701507, member: 68043"] Say we multiplied the races by the classes (and their sub builds) and came up with a number of rough builds that one could make. What do you suppose the choice number would be for this feat for most of the builds? At what choice would it have to be in order for it to be considered a "must have" or "broken" or "a patch disguised as a feat"? First choice? Second? Fifth? Tenth? Fourteenth? My opinion is that if it's not first or second in the majority of the builds, it's not a must have/broken/disguised patch. Because if it's 3rd, or 5th or 8th or whatever, that's an awful lot of feats that beat it out. Even if 99% of characters out there end up with it by level 26 that means that up to 15 other feats beat it out for a player's choice before that +3 just became too tempting. Another thing to remember is that feats are tied to concept. I want to play a warlock/wizard gnome, for example. If I start off with expertise, I don't have the concept at all because I don't have the multiclass feat. I guess I could take it at second level, but then I have to wait on taking Fey Trickster to get the rest of the cantrips. I guess I could take it at fourth, but then I have to wait on Improved Misty Step. I guess 6th then, but then I can't take either Melee Training or Reaper's Touch so I can fight up close as well. Oh, 8th then. But wait a minute! I haven't even taken any power swap feats yet! And since I want to paragon multiclass, I need to take my 6th, 8th and 10th level feats as power swap feats. Must have :hmm: right... [/QUOTE]

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