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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Smeelbo" data-source="post: 4702886" data-attributes="member: 81898">How would you feel about "Challenge Expertise?"I didn't say your build sucked, I said that if it was true that PMC was bad because it is a feat sink, then then it's no surprise that a sub-par feat sink build has no room for Expertise. I know nothing about your build, except it is a PMC, which is a feat sink, for good or ill.Same here. My first and only actively played character has a 16 in his attack stat, because that is what the character concept requires. You don't have to be an optimizer to see that Expertise is an extremely good feat. That same character will absolutely be taking Weapon Expertise: Axes at 6th level, since at that point he will have all his important heroic "capability" feats, and will be looking to improve his effectiveness.As I've said, every group I've been in, the DM won't allow a character to use a feat, power, or ability, unless the DM has access to the book. That's not farfetched. It's a simple matter of practicality. If the DM does not have access to the exact text of the feat, power, or item, how can the DM adjudicate it properly.  And how do you get the exact wording? By having access to the book. How do you get access to the book? Where I come from, you buy it. I've heard all kinds of crazy BS "quoted" on the web which happens to be wrong. Show me the book, or choose a different power. As a sales person, being able to quickly open the PHB2 up to Expertise, and show the customer, is a great way to help close that sale.The problem with that theory is that no player operates with a single motivation. Every actual player in the real world operates with a mix of motivations, which are reflected in his character and play style. For example, I subscribe to almost all those motivations, to greater or lesser degrees. While I am not predominately a power gamer, I do believe in having the combat part of my character optimized well enough to support the rest of my character concept. I always want a balanced character, viable both in and out of combat. I can optimize well enough to realize how good Expertise is, and it bothers me. I have many motivations in playing, but I'm sure not going to pass up +1 to hit, and I believe the vast majority of players optimize enough to reach the same conclusion. The problem isn't that Expertise is "eeking out every ounce of combat potency," rather that Expertise will become the first choice to improve combat potency. "Oooh, I've got a great character concept" means squat in D&D if the character hasn't got the chops to to hold up in combat. If Expertise takers are hitting 50% of the time, while non-Expertise takers are hitting 35-40% of the time, or worse, you and your friends are going to notice the difference. You might aim your build towards having all kinds of cool stuff you can do, but most of that ultimately involves hitting an opponent in combat. You don't need to be an optimizer, you only need to understand how combat works to realize how good Expertise is, and how much better it is than all the alternative feats for improving combat ability. As a thought experiment, let's try putting the shoe on the other foot. Imagine the PHB III contained the following feat:[quote="Challenge Expertise, PHB III]You gain a +2 bonus to all skill checks except during combat.</blockquote>Now, it is pretty obvious that if a character wants to be good at skill challenges and other skill checks outside combat, once that character is trained in the skills they want, Challenge Expertise will absolutely be their first choice for improving their character's capabilities outside combat. It is better than Skill Focus and stacks with it. It is better than every other feat choice for non-combat. You wouldn't have to be a min-maxer or a power gamer. Anyone who understood the basic mechanics of 4E should immediately recognize how good this feat was, and take it first, after they have taken their requisite "capability" feats. Challenge Expertise is practically the mirror image of Weapon Expertise, and would be bad for the same reason. I suppose you could argue that you can simply ignore probabilities, and that 4E allows you to do so. Perhaps it does. After all, 4E is designed to appeal to a broad audience.  Smeelbo[/QUOTE]

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