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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fedifensor" data-source="post: 4702983" data-attributes="member: 7289">Well, with an average of 3 combat encounters a day, and about 2 skill challenges in that same day (which I would say is the average in my 4E experience), you have a total of 3 action points to spend.  Each combat generally takes between 5 and 10 rounds.  If we average things out to 7.5 rounds per combat with one extra action per combat from action points, that's about 25 attacks per day, of which Action Surge will affect 3.  That seems like a pretty poor rate of return, even if you get an extra +2 with the daily.Now, if you're just killing time with your at-will powers until you're ready to use your encounter and/or daily, then the return seems much better - 3 attacks out of 4 encounter/daily attacks at 1st, or 3 out of 7 at 3rd (not counting racial encounter powers like Dragon Breath or Earthshock which aren't affected by Expertise, daily powers from magic items, etc).  However, for many classes, those at-wills are quite powerful.  Scorching Burst can hit multiple foes, as can Sword Burst or Twin Strike.  Righteous Brand can provide as much or more of a boost than Action Surge, and Sacred Flame can offer a significant buffer of temporary HP to a character.  Regardless, the higher level you are, the lower the payoff of Action Surge relative to a constant to hit bonus.  By the top of the Heroic tier, that's 3 out of 12 encounter/daily powers...only 25% of the big powers.  Daily powers have a larger effect...but they also have an effect if you miss, so the overall increase in effectiveness from a to hit bonus is the same between encounter and daily.  Overall, you get more of a bonus from the +1 to everything than the +3 when an AP is used, even before adding in at-will powers. You have less total feats with Expertise in the mix, especially if you use both Weapons and Implements.  It's a "feat tax"...and a completely unnecessary one.  Either the math for the game was fine before, which means the Expertise feats are unbalanced, or the math wasn't fine, and the Expertise feat is the wrong way to fix the game.  It doesn't affect non-Weapon, non-Implement powers like the Dragonborn or Genasi racial feats, and it reduces choice by reducing options.  As many have said, the feat is good right from level 1, flat-out superior by level 15, and a game-changer by level 25.</blockquote>

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