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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AngryPurpleCyclops" data-source="post: 4705324" data-attributes="member: 82732"></blockquote>Yup.Taken directly from page 57. (emphasis mine)Level: As you select individual threats to makeup your encounter, keep the level of those threats inmind. Monsters or traps more than four levels belowthe party’s level or seven levels above the party’s leveldon’t make good challenges. They’re either too easyor too hard, even if the encounter’s level seems right.When you want to use a single monster to challengethe PCs—or a large mob of monsters, for that matter—try using minions, elites, and solo monsters instead. this is both opinion and anecdotal.  It says N+7 2" to the left of that, this was just one example.from the wolfpack template page 59 (emphasis mine):Easy: 7 skirmishers of level n – 4Standard: 7 skirmishers of level n – 2Standard: 5 skirmishers of level nHard: 3 skirmishers of level n + 7Hard: 4 skirmishers of level n + 5Hard: 6 skirmishers of level n + 2The troll is a good example because it's a soldier(soldiers being the worst case in many instances) and still 6 levels higher than the party.  If you think pc's can't handle this encounter you clearly haven't played the game enough.  It's got a 25 reflex.  8th level rogues will hit this on about 10, a 7 with combat advantage which they will be working diligently to get.  The troll doesn't have a lot of hit points for a 14th level critter but it does have regen.  Drop a flaming sphere next to the troll and he's crippled, and coupled with just a few rounds of attention from the rogue this creature will likely perish.The trolls AC is very daunting but after a few swings the party will know this and the fighter will definitely go elsewhere with his attacks, on the other hand many of his powers have the reliable keyword so he can keep working with the rogue to grant CA which also ups his chances to hit to 13-15.In your numbers you failed to account for weapon proficiency.   Expect about an 11 ATT bonus at 8th level add 4 more for a rogue with dagger and 3 or 4 more for a fighter with his weapon of choice.  Nimble blade is +1 with CA so the rogue might have a 18 ATT bonus on combat advantage attacks (he has a couple powers that guarantee at least 1-2 flanking opportunities a combat and the party supplies the rest).  I think a 7 to hit with something like Walking Wounded (+ sneak dmg) is pretty powerful.  a 5 to hit if the cleric lands a lance of faith on him first.  Incidently the +1 ATT from expertise also helps the party considerably in this encounter.  The monster ac creep is already taking effect at level 8 and not having the feat hurts pc's.  The rest of the encounter is still pretty powerful.  5 level 9 creatures but all of them are easily hit by the party.  This is no cake walk but the reason it's so challenging is that the bad guys are a level 11 encounter not that they included the wartroll.  N+3 = hard.  The troll doesn't break the encounter and asserting it does only demonstrates a lack of understanding how the game works.  The beauty of this design is that they've actually taken the time to figure out exactly how much the party can take and created both the experience point budget and the two ranges.  One for overall encounter difficulty n-2 to n+4 and one for individual threats L-4 to L+7.  These three numbers allow the dm to be extremely creative in designing NON-homogeneous groups and therefore extremely interesting and unique encounters.  As you decrease the ranges you cut back on choices and flavor.  Removing the granularity from the game is not good.  It's exactly because of the time and effort put into designing the monsters/experience budget/encounter ranges that the pc's need to do their part and be pretty close to the expected power level.[/QUOTE]

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