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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6062890" data-attributes="member: 1465">I am glad that someone understands the issue of complexity for what it really is! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />There's a lot of comments in this thread about simple vs complex character creation. That's NOT the most important thing!! I am now seriously worried because if so many gamers only think of character creation when they talk of complexity, maybe the designers are also stuck with this mistake.One thing is complexity at character creation. This is already somehow taken care by backgrounds, specialties, traditions, schemes, fighting styles... If a player doesn't even read those descriptions, but only picks them up based on their names ("ok, I'll make a Human, Fighter with Knight background, Veteran fighting style and Archer specialty, DONE!") it can even be done in 5 minutes.Another thing is complexity at character gameplay, and this is currently a nightmare for casual gamers... There is just so much stuff to keep track of, so many different subsystems on your character sheet, and so many choices to make at each and every turn. And there is a lot of dice to roll, which can be fun but how many times an average player will forget to roll some of them?---------------I remember that Mike Mearls last spring wrote a long praise of older editions fast character creation AND fast gameplay, and he swore that THIS was one playstyle that 5e MUST support at any cost. IIRC he mentioned that his design team spent 15 minutes in character creation but also played a whole adventure with many combats and other stuff in less than 2 hours, and all of them agreed that this should be one possible way of playing 5e.But to play that way, they have to realize that "speed" requires two different things: the game should be light for the DM, and the game should be light for the players.They are actually doing a quite good job (although it could be definitely better) on the first part, the game IS light for the DM.But they are doing a terrible job on the second part, the game ISN'T light for the players.And since there is one DM and at least 3-4 players around the table, it doesn't seem to me that I can play the current game very fast, unless I get players who are really expert on the rules and the material...</blockquote>

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