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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8918128" data-attributes="member: 83242">IMO, 5e legendary monsters try to tackle the issues 4e solos had and are generally better for it.IME 4e solo issues:<ol>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Action economy. This was somewhat solved by MM3 and later solos with &quot;instinctive&quot; actions that allowed a solo one off turn action on initiative count +10.&nbsp; However, 4e monsters were still severely out gunned when it came to the numbers of actions. 5e Legendary actions are an improvement on this concept IMO and typical means a legendary monster can get 2-4 actions in per round.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Status conditions. A couple methods were used to combat status conditions, but the eventual generic solution was again instinctive actions.&nbsp; Legendary saves are the 5e response; though effective, I think the 4e response was better as it mitigate the effect without completely eliminating it.&nbsp; LevelUp's &quot;elite recovery&quot; is a good translation of this in 5e.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Hit Points. 4e solos was standard monster x4 HP which was to much for many. Many complained 4e solos were a grind because of this + issue #4. 5e &quot;solos&quot; have significantly less HP. A true challenging solo in 4e was level +4-5 which also meant&nbsp; a solo monster had a bit more HP than the whole party.&nbsp; In 5e a true solo is a legendary monster with a CR equal to lvl +8-10 and will have HP typically a but less, some times a lot less, then the whole party.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Damage. 4e solos didn't do enough damage (particularly at high levels). The had 4x the HP of a standard monster, by only 2x the actions (typically) and used the same damage by level tables as the standard monsters. So they didn't necessarily do any more damage than a standard monster.&nbsp; 5e improved on this somewhat by pushing solos further out from the PC level (and this higher up the damage tables), but didn't really tackle this problem, particularly at high levels.</li>
</ol>Finally, I do want to be clear that I really liked 4e monster design in a lot of ways.&nbsp; However, I like a 4e influenced 5e monsters even better.&nbsp; And with 5e adopting the mythic trait (essentially an improved version of 4e's elite monsters) I think 5e solos have gotten even better.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 8918128, member: 83242"] IMO, 5e legendary monsters try to tackle the issues 4e solos had and are generally better for it. IME 4e solo issues: [LIST=1] [*][B]Action economy. [/B]This was somewhat solved by MM3 and later solos with "instinctive" actions that allowed a solo one off turn action on initiative count +10. However, 4e monsters were still severely out gunned when it came to the numbers of actions. 5e Legendary actions are an improvement on this concept IMO and typical means a legendary monster can get 2-4 actions in per round. [*][B]Status conditions.[/B] A couple methods were used to combat status conditions, but the eventual generic solution was again instinctive actions. Legendary saves are the 5e response; though effective, I think the 4e response was better as it mitigate the effect without completely eliminating it. LevelUp's "elite recovery" is a good translation of this in 5e. [*][B]Hit Points. [/B]4e solos was standard monster x4 HP which was to much for many. Many complained 4e solos were a grind because of this + issue #4. 5e "solos" have significantly less HP. A true challenging solo in 4e was level +4-5 which also meant a solo monster had a bit more HP than the whole party. In 5e a true solo is a legendary monster with a CR equal to lvl +8-10 and will have HP typically a but less, some times a lot less, then the whole party. [*][B]Damage.[/B] 4e solos didn't do enough damage (particularly at high levels). The had 4x the HP of a standard monster, by only 2x the actions (typically) and used the same damage by level tables as the standard monsters. So they didn't necessarily do any more damage than a standard monster. 5e improved on this somewhat by pushing solos further out from the PC level (and this higher up the damage tables), but didn't really tackle this problem, particularly at high levels. [/LIST] Finally, I do want to be clear that I really liked 4e monster design in a lot of ways. However, I like a 4e influenced 5e monsters even better. And with 5e adopting the mythic trait (essentially an improved version of 4e's elite monsters) I think 5e solos have gotten even better. [/QUOTE]

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