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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5938041" data-attributes="member: 87792">Honestly, with the plans two of my players come up with when given time many of the times I use skill challenges are at least as engaging, interesting, and varied as 4e combat.&nbsp; And much more likely to make the table collapse with laughter.&nbsp;But combat is a small, intense, and well defined situation with limited time.&nbsp; To run a skill system rules heavy to cover the sort of things my PCs have come up with I'd need specific modifiers for:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stench levels and modifiers to diplomacy when negotiating with Troglodytes</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reaction modifiers for headbutting a priest of Kord in the middle of a theological argument</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Intimidate modifiers for pulling a &quot;Fezzik in a Storm Cloak&quot; on a fort (in addition to all the rest of the razzle dazzle the PCs pulled on that fort to terrorize it before they attacked)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Drinking contest rules, with specific modifiers for dwarves, orcs, tieflings who set their drinks on fire before drinking, and the undead</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Distance and revulsion modifiers to perception checks for spotting that the horse on a &quot;plague cart&quot; ... isn't.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Asymmetric warfare rules</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lack of sleep rules (tied to the asymmetric warfare)</li>
</ul>And that's just what immediately comes to mind before they break out the magic.&nbsp;&nbsp;Here comes the narrative.&nbsp;This is where the narrative comes in.&nbsp; And I fully agree that SCs without narrative are boring.&nbsp; Skill challenges are scaffolding to help you build narrative.&nbsp; Scaffolding by itself looks ugly.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's not absent from any games I've DM'd.&nbsp; And I've only played in one where it was absent (and I wasn't impressed by that DM).&nbsp;&nbsp;Even GURPS doesn't manage to be rules heavy enough to come close to having specific modifiers for all the stuff my PCs are going to try.&nbsp; And I'm never going to remember all the actual modifiers on the spur of the moment.&nbsp; Combat on the other hand is constrained in terms of in character time and has massive opportunity costs - and you don't want to be a victim of an arbitrary death.&nbsp; Rules heavy combat works because the range of good moves in combat is much, much more limited.&nbsp; (Bad moves will get you shanked).&nbsp;I'm happy with both and both work well, although I can understand arguing with either.&nbsp; (I'm also happy with combat being as rules-light as Wushu).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5938041, member: 87792"] Honestly, with the plans two of my players come up with when given time many of the times I use skill challenges are at least as engaging, interesting, and varied as 4e combat. And much more likely to make the table collapse with laughter. But combat is a small, intense, and well defined situation with limited time. To run a skill system rules heavy to cover the sort of things my PCs have come up with I'd need specific modifiers for: [LIST] [*]Stench levels and modifiers to diplomacy when negotiating with Troglodytes [*]Reaction modifiers for headbutting a priest of Kord in the middle of a theological argument [*]Intimidate modifiers for pulling a "Fezzik in a Storm Cloak" on a fort (in addition to all the rest of the razzle dazzle the PCs pulled on that fort to terrorize it before they attacked) [*]Drinking contest rules, with specific modifiers for dwarves, orcs, tieflings who set their drinks on fire before drinking, and the undead [*]Distance and revulsion modifiers to perception checks for spotting that the horse on a "plague cart" ... isn't. [*]Asymmetric warfare rules [*]Lack of sleep rules (tied to the asymmetric warfare) [/LIST]And that's just what immediately comes to mind before they break out the magic. Here comes the narrative. This is where the narrative comes in. And I fully agree that SCs without narrative are boring. Skill challenges are scaffolding to help you build narrative. Scaffolding by itself looks ugly. It's not absent from any games I've DM'd. And I've only played in one where it was absent (and I wasn't impressed by that DM). Even GURPS doesn't manage to be rules heavy enough to come close to having specific modifiers for all the stuff my PCs are going to try. And I'm never going to remember all the actual modifiers on the spur of the moment. Combat on the other hand is constrained in terms of in character time and has massive opportunity costs - and you don't want to be a victim of an arbitrary death. Rules heavy combat works because the range of good moves in combat is much, much more limited. (Bad moves will get you shanked). I'm happy with both and both work well, although I can understand arguing with either. (I'm also happy with combat being as rules-light as Wushu). [/QUOTE]

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