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<blockquote data-quote="Brother MacLaren" data-source="post: 3949021" data-attributes="member: 15999">I'd put the BD&amp;D transition from &quot;everyman&quot; to &quot;action hero&quot; at about level 4 (I think that's the point at which the B/X fighter gets improved attack rolls and saving throws).&nbsp; At this point, with an average of 20 HP or so, the fighter can survive several rounds of attacks from a horde of goblins.&nbsp; His AC might be around 1 or so (Plate Mail, Shield, +1 Dex; equivalent to 19 in 3E), and he might have a magic sword.&nbsp; He's still not a superhero, not walking through lava or shrugging off 60' falls, but he's quite tough.&nbsp; You might see him as an Indiana Jones type -- he doesn't seem to be really superhuman, but he overcomes odds that most people couldn't by luck, experience, and skill.&nbsp; Still, if a large group of armed Normal Men caught him unarmed and unarmored, they could probably defeat him. Getting there took MONTHS of real-world time.&nbsp; The character is an &quot;everyman&quot; hero, not all that different from a &quot;Normal Man,&quot; for the formative first 3 levels, and for many gaming sessions.&nbsp; And no matter what, he will NEVER be stronger than the strongest Normal Man (18 Str).&nbsp; That's the absolute human limit; being a Main Character doesn't change that.3E gave PCs several advantages relative to NPCs at 1st level.&nbsp; Better class abilities and starting gold (which they had before) plus maximum HP and better ability scores (which they didn't have before).&nbsp; Many games had other PC-only benefits, such as Luck Points.&nbsp; 3E made clear that PCs are a superior class of being, and to a greater degree than they used to be.&nbsp; 4E looks to stretch this even further.This isn't a binary question of &quot;Either PCs are 'Everyman' or PCs are 'uber.&quot;&nbsp; It's a spectrum.&nbsp; It is my opinion that BD&amp;D kept PCs much closer to &quot;everyman&quot; levels than 3E did, and certainly much closer than 4E looks to.&nbsp; Whether or not you agree with this change, I think it is important to recognize that is a change.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Brother MacLaren, post: 3949021, member: 15999"] I'd put the BD&D transition from "everyman" to "action hero" at about level 4 (I think that's the point at which the B/X fighter gets improved attack rolls and saving throws). At this point, with an average of 20 HP or so, the fighter can survive several rounds of attacks from a horde of goblins. His AC might be around 1 or so (Plate Mail, Shield, +1 Dex; equivalent to 19 in 3E), and he might have a magic sword. He's still not a superhero, not walking through lava or shrugging off 60' falls, but he's quite tough. You might see him as an Indiana Jones type -- he doesn't seem to be really superhuman, but he overcomes odds that most people couldn't by luck, experience, and skill. Still, if a large group of armed Normal Men caught him unarmed and unarmored, they could probably defeat him. Getting there took MONTHS of real-world time. The character is an "everyman" hero, not all that different from a "Normal Man," for the formative first 3 levels, and for many gaming sessions. And no matter what, he will NEVER be stronger than the strongest Normal Man (18 Str). That's the absolute human limit; being a Main Character doesn't change that. 3E gave PCs several advantages relative to NPCs at 1st level. Better class abilities and starting gold (which they had before) plus maximum HP and better ability scores (which they didn't have before). Many games had other PC-only benefits, such as Luck Points. 3E made clear that PCs are a superior class of being, and to a greater degree than they used to be. 4E looks to stretch this even further. This isn't a binary question of "Either PCs are 'Everyman' or PCs are 'uber." It's a spectrum. It is my opinion that BD&D kept PCs much [I]closer to[/I] "everyman" levels than 3E did, and certainly much closer than 4E looks to. Whether or not you agree with this change, I think it is important to recognize that is a change. [/QUOTE]

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