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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 6295302" data-attributes="member: 6668292">This is true, but only pretty useful outside of combat. If he even feels threatened, actually, he gets a +5 bonus on his save, cutting your chance of success down by 25% (to a 55% chance by your estimation). And, of course, any act by you or your apparent allies that threaten it break the spell. And that 55% is with two feats invested.So, if the giants are okay with talking, you're looking good at charming one. This might piss off the other ones, though. And if it does, now you're in combat (or they're threatened), where your odds of success have dropped significantly lower than what you've offered. And, of course, just because the charmed giant sees you as Friendly.Yes, Charm would allow you to try to manipulate it ("You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing."). However, I'm not certain that you could convince it to attack its own allies. Even the pfsrd says this:No mention of making it attack fellow orcs one way or another, but I think my interpretation is probably more valid.This is the part where we disagree on what you can force the hill giant to do. It's very different from a summon spell. Maybe you're confusing Charm with Dominate?I'd think the Rogue would have higher Wisdom, based on my experiences of 3.5. But PF did a lot to close the gap with how they handled cross-class skills, yes. (Also, accidental "rouge" on your part <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />)Depends on where you're scouting. I don't use dungeons, really, but lots of people do, and invisibility isn't quite as useful there. But yes, they're very good scouting spells.Just want to add that I think the saves in 3.5 are off-balance, I don't like class-skills in any form (including cross-class skills), and I think that fly/invisibility need a nerf. They're all problems I looked at in my own RPG. However, I think that we're still dealing with niche areas (non-hostile hill giant against an enchanter specialist that are met alone so that their buddies don't attack, and you win an opposed Charisma check as a Wizard [no retries] to allow you to do something that I think is against the rules [fight its allies for you]). But that's just me.Edited to translate from 3.5 to PF.</blockquote>

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