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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6295452" data-attributes="member: 42582">For the sake of clarity, are you saying that any adventurer-type PC turning up unexpectedly and casting Charm counts as threatening, and grants a +5 to save? What if the caster holds up one hand (the non-casting one) in a gesture of peace?The spell says &quot;If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.&quot; You are saying that turning up uninvited and armed counts as threatening. I don't think that's either a fair or a reasonable interpretation of the spell text.Intelligence is relevant to whether or not I can manipulate a Chaotic Evil giant into attacking its friends. Opposed CHA checks only come into play &quot;to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do&quot;. For a chaotic evil giant, indulging its violent passions is something that it would ordinarily do.Why would the giant think it's suicidal to help you kill the boss and take over? (Presumably a PF wizard can have Bluff as a skill.)Hopefully my allies are tough enough to cow it. That's part of why it will believe that we can help it overthrow its boss.So what do players use Charm for in your game, if not to try and manipulate their enemies in the course of play? I'd always assumed that was the point of the spell, and that's always how it's been used by players in my game (across multiple systems).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6295452, member: 42582"] For the sake of clarity, are you saying that any adventurer-type PC turning up unexpectedly and casting Charm counts as threatening, and grants a +5 to save? What if the caster holds up one hand (the non-casting one) in a gesture of peace? The spell says "If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw." You are saying that turning up uninvited and armed counts as threatening. I don't think that's either a fair or a reasonable interpretation of the spell text. Intelligence is relevant to whether or not I can manipulate a Chaotic Evil giant into attacking its friends. Opposed CHA checks only come into play "to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do". For a chaotic evil giant, indulging its violent passions is something that it would ordinarily do. Why would the giant think it's suicidal to help you kill the boss and take over? (Presumably a PF wizard can have Bluff as a skill.) Hopefully my allies are tough enough to cow it. That's part of why it will believe that we can help it overthrow its boss. So what do players use Charm for in your game, if not to try and manipulate their enemies in the course of play? I'd always assumed that was the point of the spell, and that's always how it's been used by players in my game (across multiple systems). [/QUOTE]

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