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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wicht" data-source="post: 6295456" data-attributes="member: 221">I am saying that a group of adventurers being in a dungeon is inherently threatening to the inhabitants. Yes. Generally, such a situation is going to make the save easier for the creature. Now, if the wizard wants to try and bluff the creature before the casting of the spell, that's a different story. People who turn up uninvited and armed at my home are going to be considered moderately threatening unless I know them. As an experienced DM trying for some level of verisimilitude in his world, I think it an imminently reasonable assumption on the part of the monsters. The feeling of being threatened is dependent entirely on the perception of the other party as to your intentions.  Intelligence is not relevant at all to how well you can manipulate him. Its Charisma, by the rules. And obviously it wouldn't normally attack its boss. I would assume that if the boss is powerful enough to cow the giant in the first place, the answer as to why would be self-evident. Now if you are going to try and charm one of the higher level hill giants that's a different matter. But then the save is going to be harder. And if you want to try and convince the giant you are going to make it chief, then I suppose you could try, but its still not a sure thing. Charm does not make a creature your slave. It makes it your friend. Charm does not inherently make a creature fight for you. It makes it wish you well. Well of course Charm is used to manipulate enemies. But it has limits. It does not make a creature into your newest meat-shield. It does not replace Summon Monster, Dominate, or any of the other spells which actually get a creature to fight on your behalf. Charm must be used, at the least, in conjunction with other abilities to be effective, abilities which the average wizard is short on (Charisma, Diplomacy and Bluff; in point of fact Charm is generally much more useful for sorcerers). It also offers no guarantee of protection for your allies and its easy to have one of your allies inadvertently undo the spell.</blockquote>

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