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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7342723" data-attributes="member: 5142">I don't know. This argument seems to require buying into an overly broad and diluted sense for what constitutes a Vancian magic system. I'm not sure if I would call that Vancian though. Since you cite Blizzard games, and here I assume that you are primarily referencing World of Warcraft, the game is indeed attempting to create "enforced diversity," but that is primarily for the sake of dynamic combat rotations and "enforced complexity." Vancian magic is less about creating dynamic play via combat rotations and more about power tiers. I think you're shooting a bit low on your typical estimation, but that is also true for D&D. Most systems, I would estimate, generally assume 4-5 players plus a GM as opposed to 12 players. But this is likely because this is indeed more typical than 10+ player groups. Woah. Holy hell do I disagree with these assertions about Fate. Fate has indeed evolved as a game, and it did evolve out of Fudge. There are four editions of Fate, and it has now also evolved to include Fate Acclerated. And, IME, Fate does indeed run as it reads. This is the reverse experience I had with Fate, so step the hell back and consider that your opinion is neither truth nor universally shared. And my players and I regularly get out all of this with Fate.</blockquote>