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So what exactly is the root cause of the D&D rules' staying power?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7342878" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Actually, it does. It just doesn't - and this a statement that is true of D&D generally - use a single mechanic pervasively throughout all its skill checks. If you go read the 3e skill descriptions, you'll find all sorts of different varieties of degee of success. For example, look at how it is implemented in 'sleight of hand':</p><p></p><p>"If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. "</p><p></p><p>So you can succeed completely, succeed with consequences, fail, and fail with consequences. That's degree of success.</p><p></p><p>It's implemented in a completely different way in the "Use magical device" skill:</p><p></p><p>"If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself."</p><p></p><p>Again, success, failure, and failure with consequences.</p><p></p><p>What about the jump skill? Not only is it not merely "pass/fail", it's actually analog - the exact amount of your success depends on the exact amount of your result. That's degree of success implemented in yet another way completely. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Perceive? Perception? Aren't those verbs that actually mean, "How you think about the game?" I don't mean to trivialize or belittle that. I consider it so important. But when you tell me that it colors perception of the game, you aren't actually arguing against me. I agree that perception creates a completely different game, but not that that perception is primarily an artifact of the rules (as exemplified by the fact you made an assertion about D&D skill checks that isn't true).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I'm not saying that. There are certainly settings and tropes I would prefer to emulate with a different rules engine more tailored to the specifics of that setting or trope. What I am primarily saying is that D&D has succeeded for more reasons than just being the first and most familiar. I have a lot of associated thoughts to go with that, like the fact that while there are different styles of play that other games provide for that D&D just doesn't really bless, I'm not convinced that those styles are as popular or functional with a typical group of friends as the core game D&D does support. So it hardly surprises me that there are groups that enjoy FATE, My Life with Master, or Fiasco more than D&D, it also doesn't surprise me that those games aren't really 'the next big thing'. I think that Indy games have done wonderful things to expand the language and scope of what we know how to do with the rules. I'm just also not surprised this new technology hasn't obsoleted the old technology.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7342878, member: 4937"] Actually, it does. It just doesn't - and this a statement that is true of D&D generally - use a single mechanic pervasively throughout all its skill checks. If you go read the 3e skill descriptions, you'll find all sorts of different varieties of degee of success. For example, look at how it is implemented in 'sleight of hand': "If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. " So you can succeed completely, succeed with consequences, fail, and fail with consequences. That's degree of success. It's implemented in a completely different way in the "Use magical device" skill: "If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself." Again, success, failure, and failure with consequences. What about the jump skill? Not only is it not merely "pass/fail", it's actually analog - the exact amount of your success depends on the exact amount of your result. That's degree of success implemented in yet another way completely. Perceive? Perception? Aren't those verbs that actually mean, "How you think about the game?" I don't mean to trivialize or belittle that. I consider it so important. But when you tell me that it colors perception of the game, you aren't actually arguing against me. I agree that perception creates a completely different game, but not that that perception is primarily an artifact of the rules (as exemplified by the fact you made an assertion about D&D skill checks that isn't true). No, I'm not saying that. There are certainly settings and tropes I would prefer to emulate with a different rules engine more tailored to the specifics of that setting or trope. What I am primarily saying is that D&D has succeeded for more reasons than just being the first and most familiar. I have a lot of associated thoughts to go with that, like the fact that while there are different styles of play that other games provide for that D&D just doesn't really bless, I'm not convinced that those styles are as popular or functional with a typical group of friends as the core game D&D does support. So it hardly surprises me that there are groups that enjoy FATE, My Life with Master, or Fiasco more than D&D, it also doesn't surprise me that those games aren't really 'the next big thing'. I think that Indy games have done wonderful things to expand the language and scope of what we know how to do with the rules. I'm just also not surprised this new technology hasn't obsoleted the old technology. [/QUOTE]
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So what exactly is the root cause of the D&D rules' staying power?
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