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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7347365" data-attributes="member: 4937">The conversation had ceased to be cordial before I responded as a I did.  It's not worth responding at length because the conversation isn't cordial, and I'm only responding now to make it clear that I hardly think my response unjustified considering the uncharitable comment I was responded to.  I don't actually subscribe to Forge's grand unified theory, and I consider it a flawed theory on multiple levels - there is never only one aesthetic of play at work at a time, a game can support multiple aesthetics of play, and there are not just 3 aesthetics of play (simulation is a Forge catch-all term for several different aesthetics IMO).  The language of Forge is only useful to me in that it provides something of a shared framework without having to communicate my own theories about where the fun comes from in games.  Unfortunately, even it's utility even then is suspect because of the vagueness of the terms and the various ways that different people will employ the terms.I know what FATE purports to accomplish.  I have some idea why people who say that they enjoy FATE say that they enjoy it.  It's not the first time I've been in this conversation about the merits of FATE. I just find that the transcript of play belies most of the stated reasons for enjoyment (fortune rituals in FATE in practice tend to be much heavier in terms of time and calculation burden than in 3e D&D, for example), and at the risk of sounding like Ron Edwards (*shudder*) I think that everything I've seen of FATE very much resembles my own early experience with 1e AD&D where I was often as not enjoying the game despite the rules whether than because of them.  As just one example of that, in Wil Wheaton's video log of play, observe the conflicted emotions he's experiencing with the system after having set out to create a character that would get combat spotlight and struggling with his inability to actually achieve that despite having prioritized that in his character description.  Further, by contrast and comparison, observe in podcast how and why aspects are actually manipulated and called out in play.  In Forge terms, what aesthetic of play is being prioritized by this ritual of play, and why - in context - is that aesthetic of play dysfunctional in Forge terms?But in general I'm done.   This conversation ended with, "There are many other simulationist-oriented games out there, and 3.X had already been out for a number of years before Fate Core came out.  If you want others to understand why Fate doesn't scratch your simulationist itch and 3.0 does, it would probably be beneficial for you to reciprocate that by bothering to learn and appreciate why others get a lot out of the Fate system."</blockquote>

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