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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4494782" data-attributes="member: 710">Or another question: Combat - what makes it RPG combat vs Board Game Combat?Note that Darrin does explicitely mention that "Roleplaying Game" is still not defined well enough to say a certain game is not an RPG, and he's more interested in the question whether 4E is D&D or not (which is a question I don't care about because D&D is something different for anyone, and I can write 1,000,000 times that 4E feel like D&D to me, it won't change Darrins mind, and vice versa)I had actually a different question, but along similar ideas. What about combat in an RPG does tell us that it is an RPG combat system, and not something else? Because I keep hearing these complains about "board-gamey" or "card-gamey" or what-you-have, and all this actually talks about is combat. But combat is not the only part of an RPG. I see it as an important aspect of RPG, but there is more to it?In a way, I think the entire mindset you go into an RPG vs. any other game. When you're playing Monopoly, you don't go in with the belief that any of your game pieces stand for a person with desires, hopes or interests. It's your game pieces, and your desires, hopes and interests are the important part - (and your desire is typically to win). In a RPG, you begin by assuming that you're not steering a game piece. You think of yourself narrating the actions and decisions (using different methods) of a fictional person. You use rules to determine whether he succeeds in his goals and ambitions. You play pretend.With an RPG mindset, maybe you could play Monopoly like an RPG. But it might feel very narrow-minded, since the game does not assume any goals beyond acquiring money and buying buildings. Many RPGs come with a detailed combat system, but regardless of the level of detail, the games still assumes there is more beyond it. It doesn't always give hard rules for that (early RPGs - including D&D - don't support a real skill system), but they still hint at the DM to allow such things to happen. If a player wants to pick a lock, and the designers didn't create an explicit Thievery skill or Lock-Picking tool, the DM can still allow the player to do it - and it might be resolved using a dex check (if the game has such an attribute) or by the player describing how he tries to do it. In a monopoly game, there is no guidelines or suggestions if a player wants to hold a party in one of his buildings and invite all his friends. Or that he wants to role-play his "character" (game piece) falling in love with another game piece. In a game of clue, the investigators can't decide to just run away, torture one (or all) of the suspects, or decide to conspire with the real perpetrator.I think one of the fundamental things in an RPG is that it is open ended. The rules provide a starting point, but you have to fully acknowledge the possibility that there is stuff outside it, and players (including the DM) should never forget that part, and usually even count on it.</blockquote>

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