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So what is high level play like?
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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9049625" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>For many years, I made the mistake of thinking that D&D adventures need to challenge the players. I would carefully look at the average numbers of the party, keep track of powerful abilities, and make sure that certain things were always true (not a comprehensive list):</p><p></p><p>*Anyone who has any business making attack rolls can hit enemies a reasonable percentage of the time (at least 25%, but usually more like 40%). This means AC numbers could only rise above this threshold for major threats.</p><p>*Encounters cannot be instantly won by the use of a single ability.</p><p>*Encounters only occasionally directly challenge the weak points of a player. Examples: a player is a monk or dual-wielding, and their damage is basically "death of a thousand cuts", only rarely should they have to face enemies that deal damage to them for having the nerve to attack or have 3e/PF1e style DR that they cannot bypass. A caster with mostly fire spells shouldn't often have to face fire immune enemies.</p><p>*Enemies should always have one saving throw that casters can reliably count on to fail (again, probably about 60% chance or better to get a spell off).</p><p></p><p>And so on. I spent hours on encounter and enemy design, tweaking numbers and making sure I had done my due diligence to be tough, but fair. And what always happened was, right around level 12 or so, everything fell apart. The only way I could challenge player characters was by being decidedly unfair. AC's would keep rising to the point that secondary combatants might as well not even roll dice, immunities and resistances were all over the place, and the game became a slog. And often, despite my best efforts, encounters would either be easily defeated or risk a TPK, it was impossible to find a sweet spot. So I'd get frustrated, rant about it, ask my players what I should do, get no real help from them, lol, and finally stop running.</p><p></p><p>What I've finally come to realize is that, at a certain point, it's not about challenging the players. They've gained power and abilities in good measure, they can take on everything. So at high levels, it's not about that. It's about entertaining them with fantastical adventures, and letting them have their wish fulfillment of taking on demon princes and dragon kings. Time to stop applying the brakes and make the game more about the story than any attempt to keep running the game the way you did at lower levels.</p><p></p><p>A high level Fighter should be able to take on armies. So let them; the time that they can be challenged by 1-5 other randos is over.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9049625, member: 6877472"] For many years, I made the mistake of thinking that D&D adventures need to challenge the players. I would carefully look at the average numbers of the party, keep track of powerful abilities, and make sure that certain things were always true (not a comprehensive list): *Anyone who has any business making attack rolls can hit enemies a reasonable percentage of the time (at least 25%, but usually more like 40%). This means AC numbers could only rise above this threshold for major threats. *Encounters cannot be instantly won by the use of a single ability. *Encounters only occasionally directly challenge the weak points of a player. Examples: a player is a monk or dual-wielding, and their damage is basically "death of a thousand cuts", only rarely should they have to face enemies that deal damage to them for having the nerve to attack or have 3e/PF1e style DR that they cannot bypass. A caster with mostly fire spells shouldn't often have to face fire immune enemies. *Enemies should always have one saving throw that casters can reliably count on to fail (again, probably about 60% chance or better to get a spell off). And so on. I spent hours on encounter and enemy design, tweaking numbers and making sure I had done my due diligence to be tough, but fair. And what always happened was, right around level 12 or so, everything fell apart. The only way I could challenge player characters was by being decidedly unfair. AC's would keep rising to the point that secondary combatants might as well not even roll dice, immunities and resistances were all over the place, and the game became a slog. And often, despite my best efforts, encounters would either be easily defeated or risk a TPK, it was impossible to find a sweet spot. So I'd get frustrated, rant about it, ask my players what I should do, get no real help from them, lol, and finally stop running. What I've finally come to realize is that, at a certain point, it's not about challenging the players. They've gained power and abilities in good measure, they can take on everything. So at high levels, it's not about that. It's about entertaining them with fantastical adventures, and letting them have their wish fulfillment of taking on demon princes and dragon kings. Time to stop applying the brakes and make the game more about the story than any attempt to keep running the game the way you did at lower levels. A high level Fighter should be able to take on armies. So let them; the time that they can be challenged by 1-5 other randos is over. [/QUOTE]
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