Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
So whatever happened to the Tactics Variant/Module or Whatever
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7637793" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>[sblock="off topic"]That's the thing, you don't need to talk about 20-level builds to new players. They can play a 'starting package' or pregen. Really, in any edition, pregens are a good idea, that's why modules had 'em back in the 0e days (In Search of the Unknown, which came with the c1977 basic set had pregens in the back), and 5e has 'em in the Basic PDF. Encounters pregens came on laminated half-sheets. Though, TBH, one of the whack things WotC has done in both 4e & 5e is take the language used to say mean things about it's predecessor and incorporate it into the new one as jargon - so 'build' was actually 4e jargon for what, in 4e, is sub-class-chosen-at-first-level, and amounted to picking a first level feature)</p><p></p><p>But, if you don't, in 3e, and they play the character any length of time, they'll likely run up against a 'mistake' at lower level that prevents them from taking an optimal, or even viable, development path. That's less of an issue in 5e (a non-issue in AL before 4th level). It was a non-issue in 4e, you could retrain at each level.</p><p></p><p>Actually, backgrounds weren't in the PH, and you left out 1 feat, so still 7. That's also fewer choices than any caster faces in any other WotC edition (or 2e, I'm pretty sure - in prior eds, most of those choices would be made for you by the dice). Oh, you also left out choosing several skills. We could call it 10 choices, all total, to have a complete character. There were default packages that made almost all of them for you, but that aside...</p><p></p><p>I'm sorry. So fighters don't choose Fighting Style? Wizards don't choose Tradition, and known spells, and cantrips, and no one chooses skills?</p><p></p><p>Let's look at a 5e wizard in the same detail you did the AEDU character (who, are all /pretty close/ in how many choices they get, and when - which simplifies the game, making it more accessible... more on that later).</p><p></p><p>Chose Race, choose Sub-Race, choose Class (Wizard!) OK, choose Tradition (there are 8 of 'em they have to do with the way spells are grouped, there are a couple hundred of them, only 26 are first level though, but you might want to familiarize yourself to make the right choice for the kind of wizard you want)(oh, is there a list of the 26 I can read through)(of course, it's a list, though, you need to look each one up alphabetically), (OK, Evoker sounds cool and simple all about blasting). OK, choose 3 cantrips, (from this list of 14). (OK! hey, some of these are Evocation, so I get to use my Evoker's "Potent Cantrip!")(Weeeell not exactly, there are some, but they're in supplements, we're not using those right now), now choose your 6 known spells for your spellbook, from this list of 26. (But it says I have 2 spells to go with the 3 cantrips) (No that's spell slots you can cast per day) (So I can cast 3 cantrips and two spells per day?) (Cantrips all you want, but slots aren't spells, they power spells, you'll know 6 spells, but cast only two of them per day, form a list of INTmod+1 spells known that you /prepare/). </p><p>Also, pick 2 skills and a Background, and we're practically done, you just might have to choose a language or tool proficiency or something from your background.</p><p></p><p>...hm...sounds like 16-20 choices. Not counting picking prepared spells, because, hey, that's 'in play,' not technically chargen.</p><p></p><p></p><p>so, yeah, let's use pregens. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>… and then there's 2nd level.</p><p></p><p>In the olden days, different characters would reach second level at different times. Since, 3e, it's mostly been at the same time, which does make things more accessible. Except. What do you get at 2nd level?</p><p></p><p>Well, in 3e or 5e, look up your class table, and see what you get, it'll be different for everyone, might be a specific feat or a choice of a bonus feat from a list of 20+ in 3e, might be a specific ability or choice of an ability, or another known spell from that same list or a character-defining choice of sub-class, in 5e. Check if your Proficiency has gone up (5e nope), or in 3e if your BAB bumps and your saves (different for 'good' vs 'bad'), and spend anything from 1 (Fighter 8 int) to 10+ (Rogue, high int) skill ranks. </p><p>In 4e. Everything implements by 1, pick a feat, and, pick a utility power from your class, from a list of 2-5 under your class, in the PH1. Not exactly staggering - it's a compromise between customization (feat), simplification (the DM can just tell everyone, once, what they get), and class differentiation (each class had it's own short list of 2nd level utilities). </p><p> </p><p></p><p>Customization /is/ good for the game for experienced players (or /really/ enthused new players who have their heart set on a concept that doesn't neatly fit a bog-standard class) who like that sort of thing. Which made 3e something a lot of us loved, and others couldn't get into. Optimized Builds are only 'bad' (cater to one preference at the expense of another) for the game if they're too OP and make non-optimized characters non-viable compared to them. Which also made 3e something a lot of us loved and others found... discouraging. </p><p></p><p>But, customization is really an option that you can dive into or not. There's generally a default or obvious choice that you can coast with if you don't care for that dive. </p><p></p><p>5e /does/ optionally open up some additional customization through Feats and MCing, and also puts forward some up-front with non-optional Backgrounds (and 4 optional characteristics...), sub-races, & sub-classes. But, it's still a lot less than you could do in 3e and 4e.</p><p></p><p> 4e specifically tried to get away from the 'static combat' that often got in the way of 3.5's otherwise equally rich set of tactical options, mostly inherited from 2e C&T. And tactics were never exactly entirely lacking from D&D - all the way back to Chainmail, it did have roots in wargaming, afterall! So, no, it wasn't a particular strength of 4e, it was just something 4e did well, while avoiding the 'static combat' pitfall that tripped up 3e, and the more general issue of the 'tactics' employed by non-casters being obviated as casters became increasingly over-powered, in other editions. </p><p>Class balance, for instance, was far more significant. Simple, reasonably dependable encounter building guidelines were pretty significant. A viable structured way of involving everyone in a non-combat encounter, that was weighted the same as combat encounters, was a pretty significant innovation, too. And, since I ran a lot of introductory games, the greater accessibility of the system to new players was also a very significant strength.</p><p></p><p>Sure. Most of the problems people had with 4e were with things it had changed from older editions - often, ironically, to fix well-known problems - and 5e returned to a lot of those.[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7637793, member: 996"] [sblock="off topic"]That's the thing, you don't need to talk about 20-level builds to new players. They can play a 'starting package' or pregen. Really, in any edition, pregens are a good idea, that's why modules had 'em back in the 0e days (In Search of the Unknown, which came with the c1977 basic set had pregens in the back), and 5e has 'em in the Basic PDF. Encounters pregens came on laminated half-sheets. Though, TBH, one of the whack things WotC has done in both 4e & 5e is take the language used to say mean things about it's predecessor and incorporate it into the new one as jargon - so 'build' was actually 4e jargon for what, in 4e, is sub-class-chosen-at-first-level, and amounted to picking a first level feature) But, if you don't, in 3e, and they play the character any length of time, they'll likely run up against a 'mistake' at lower level that prevents them from taking an optimal, or even viable, development path. That's less of an issue in 5e (a non-issue in AL before 4th level). It was a non-issue in 4e, you could retrain at each level. Actually, backgrounds weren't in the PH, and you left out 1 feat, so still 7. That's also fewer choices than any caster faces in any other WotC edition (or 2e, I'm pretty sure - in prior eds, most of those choices would be made for you by the dice). Oh, you also left out choosing several skills. We could call it 10 choices, all total, to have a complete character. There were default packages that made almost all of them for you, but that aside... I'm sorry. So fighters don't choose Fighting Style? Wizards don't choose Tradition, and known spells, and cantrips, and no one chooses skills? Let's look at a 5e wizard in the same detail you did the AEDU character (who, are all /pretty close/ in how many choices they get, and when - which simplifies the game, making it more accessible... more on that later). Chose Race, choose Sub-Race, choose Class (Wizard!) OK, choose Tradition (there are 8 of 'em they have to do with the way spells are grouped, there are a couple hundred of them, only 26 are first level though, but you might want to familiarize yourself to make the right choice for the kind of wizard you want)(oh, is there a list of the 26 I can read through)(of course, it's a list, though, you need to look each one up alphabetically), (OK, Evoker sounds cool and simple all about blasting). OK, choose 3 cantrips, (from this list of 14). (OK! hey, some of these are Evocation, so I get to use my Evoker's "Potent Cantrip!")(Weeeell not exactly, there are some, but they're in supplements, we're not using those right now), now choose your 6 known spells for your spellbook, from this list of 26. (But it says I have 2 spells to go with the 3 cantrips) (No that's spell slots you can cast per day) (So I can cast 3 cantrips and two spells per day?) (Cantrips all you want, but slots aren't spells, they power spells, you'll know 6 spells, but cast only two of them per day, form a list of INTmod+1 spells known that you /prepare/). Also, pick 2 skills and a Background, and we're practically done, you just might have to choose a language or tool proficiency or something from your background. ...hm...sounds like 16-20 choices. Not counting picking prepared spells, because, hey, that's 'in play,' not technically chargen. so, yeah, let's use pregens. ;) … and then there's 2nd level. In the olden days, different characters would reach second level at different times. Since, 3e, it's mostly been at the same time, which does make things more accessible. Except. What do you get at 2nd level? Well, in 3e or 5e, look up your class table, and see what you get, it'll be different for everyone, might be a specific feat or a choice of a bonus feat from a list of 20+ in 3e, might be a specific ability or choice of an ability, or another known spell from that same list or a character-defining choice of sub-class, in 5e. Check if your Proficiency has gone up (5e nope), or in 3e if your BAB bumps and your saves (different for 'good' vs 'bad'), and spend anything from 1 (Fighter 8 int) to 10+ (Rogue, high int) skill ranks. In 4e. Everything implements by 1, pick a feat, and, pick a utility power from your class, from a list of 2-5 under your class, in the PH1. Not exactly staggering - it's a compromise between customization (feat), simplification (the DM can just tell everyone, once, what they get), and class differentiation (each class had it's own short list of 2nd level utilities). Customization /is/ good for the game for experienced players (or /really/ enthused new players who have their heart set on a concept that doesn't neatly fit a bog-standard class) who like that sort of thing. Which made 3e something a lot of us loved, and others couldn't get into. Optimized Builds are only 'bad' (cater to one preference at the expense of another) for the game if they're too OP and make non-optimized characters non-viable compared to them. Which also made 3e something a lot of us loved and others found... discouraging. But, customization is really an option that you can dive into or not. There's generally a default or obvious choice that you can coast with if you don't care for that dive. 5e /does/ optionally open up some additional customization through Feats and MCing, and also puts forward some up-front with non-optional Backgrounds (and 4 optional characteristics...), sub-races, & sub-classes. But, it's still a lot less than you could do in 3e and 4e. 4e specifically tried to get away from the 'static combat' that often got in the way of 3.5's otherwise equally rich set of tactical options, mostly inherited from 2e C&T. And tactics were never exactly entirely lacking from D&D - all the way back to Chainmail, it did have roots in wargaming, afterall! So, no, it wasn't a particular strength of 4e, it was just something 4e did well, while avoiding the 'static combat' pitfall that tripped up 3e, and the more general issue of the 'tactics' employed by non-casters being obviated as casters became increasingly over-powered, in other editions. Class balance, for instance, was far more significant. Simple, reasonably dependable encounter building guidelines were pretty significant. A viable structured way of involving everyone in a non-combat encounter, that was weighted the same as combat encounters, was a pretty significant innovation, too. And, since I ran a lot of introductory games, the greater accessibility of the system to new players was also a very significant strength. Sure. Most of the problems people had with 4e were with things it had changed from older editions - often, ironically, to fix well-known problems - and 5e returned to a lot of those.[/sblock] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
So whatever happened to the Tactics Variant/Module or Whatever
Top