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<blockquote data-quote="Aribar" data-source="post: 6656741" data-attributes="member: 6777974">Personally, I think there's two things that make Fighters lackluster. First, they are mechanically boring and don't seem to do anything over classes can't do just as well, better, or in addition to other things. Champion is one of the worst subclasses in the game, Battlemasters get their best maneuvers up front and worse ones as time goes on, and Eldritch Knights are a poor man's Bladelock, Battlemaster Fighter/Abjurer Wizard, or Bard. I'm not positive on this, but HP damage may still become &quot;not as important&quot; compared to save-or-dies or other combat negating effects as levels increase.Second, I have no idea where their narrative place is. Other classes have lots of flavor. Heck, look at the progression of the Magic-User class over the editions. Starts with just the catch-all Magic User in Basic. Morphs out to several other classes in AD&amp;D and intervening publications. In 3E it explodes into Wizard, Sorcerer, Bards, Warlock, Beguiler, Duskblade, Truenamer, and Warmage, among others. Lots of fluff, lots of different flavors just to say &quot;I cast magic&quot;. Fighters used to become lords of the land and have other various things attributed to them. Those were parceled out to other classes, but unlike the Wizard, they didn't get anything in return or have a strong identity to call their own. When I'm thinking up characters these days, I find it easier to fit them in the other classes because they have better mechanics to support a street-savvy brawler, or a noble polearm-wielding knight, or an archery, etc. than &quot;Fighter 20&quot;.It'd be nice if we had <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xe4DnrhdP_SGbzdoIDEdtTyywJGDLaVcqTyJjG4Xjxk/edit" target="_blank">a system like this</a> or something to give Fighters entertaining and creative options to choose between.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Aribar, post: 6656741, member: 6777974"] Personally, I think there's two things that make Fighters lackluster. First, they are mechanically boring and don't seem to do anything over classes can't do just as well, better, or in addition to other things. Champion is one of the worst subclasses in the game, Battlemasters get their best maneuvers up front and worse ones as time goes on, and Eldritch Knights are a poor man's Bladelock, Battlemaster Fighter/Abjurer Wizard, or Bard. I'm not positive on this, but HP damage may still become "not as important" compared to save-or-dies or other combat negating effects as levels increase. Second, I have no idea where their narrative place is. Other classes have lots of flavor. Heck, look at the progression of the Magic-User class over the editions. Starts with just the catch-all Magic User in Basic. Morphs out to several other classes in AD&D and intervening publications. In 3E it explodes into Wizard, Sorcerer, Bards, Warlock, Beguiler, Duskblade, Truenamer, and Warmage, among others. Lots of fluff, lots of different flavors just to say "I cast magic". Fighters used to become lords of the land and have other various things attributed to them. Those were parceled out to other classes, but unlike the Wizard, they didn't get anything in return or have a strong identity to call their own. When I'm thinking up characters these days, I find it easier to fit them in the other classes because they have better mechanics to support a street-savvy brawler, or a noble polearm-wielding knight, or an archery, etc. than "Fighter 20". It'd be nice if we had [URL="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xe4DnrhdP_SGbzdoIDEdtTyywJGDLaVcqTyJjG4Xjxk/edit"]a system like this[/URL] or something to give Fighters entertaining and creative options to choose between. [/QUOTE]

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