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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6663187" data-attributes="member: 22779">Hang on.&nbsp; You're saying that learning magic is now easier than learning to use a sword?&nbsp; How does that jive with D&amp;D where magic is meant to be difficult to learn and out of reach of the common person.&nbsp; Because the common person most certainly can learn to use a weapon and it was pretty darn common for many people to be trained in local militia.&nbsp; If learning to bend reality to your will was that easy that it only takes a couple of days, just like learning to use a gun, why doesn't everyone in the game world start with numerous spells instead of weapon proficiencies?&nbsp; Or spells in addition to weapon proficiencies.&nbsp; Considering that every single first level character comes out of the chute knowing how to use several weapons, wouldn't it make sense that they learned a couple of spells if magic were really that easy?Yes, I want a real explanation.&nbsp; It's not venting.&nbsp; No one has actually explained why it's perfectly fine for a fighter to have access to spells and thus gain the choice, at 3rd level, of 2 at-will and 3 daily spells, without a spell book mind you, out of a selection of a dozen or so options, gaining a new spell every couple of levels, again, out of a fairly lengthy list, but, doing the same thing for a purely martial fighter is off the table.Even Battlemasters are limited in the number of times they can use their manoeuvres.&nbsp; &quot;Because he gets tired&quot;?&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; So, exactly why can I learn to trip someone, but, I cannot learn to do anything else until 7th level?&nbsp; ((Yes, yes, I know the BM get's 3 manoeuvres, stick to the point ok?))&nbsp; Why can't I switch any of that out, say, on a daily basis?&nbsp; A caster can do it with no problem and learning magic is supposed to be hard.I'm not saying a BM should be able to choose a manoeuvre every single round.&nbsp; But, why not choose his suite of manoeuvres every day, just like a caster?&nbsp; He knows all of them, but, he chooses a particular &quot;school of fighting&quot; for the day and that &quot;school of fighting&quot; requires enough mental and physical preparation that it takes a long rest to &quot;reset&quot;.&nbsp; Would this overpower the BM?&nbsp; Would this make a BM more powerful than a caster, or even a regular BM?&nbsp; I can't see how, since all the powers are already nicely balanced.&nbsp; Being able to switch them out shouldn't increase power particularly. So, what's the problem here?&nbsp; The question is &quot;What's exactly wrong with the fighter?&quot;&nbsp; That's my answer - the fighter does't have enough dials and knobs.&nbsp; I want a martial character with as many options over the course of his career as a caster.&nbsp; That would make me very happy.As far as the whole dissociated mechanics thing goes, that ship sailed as soon as you allowed Second Winds for fighters.&nbsp; A fighter can conceivably be bloodied numerous times per day, self heal and end the day with full HP and his Second Wind back.&nbsp; IOW, the fighter could take enough damage to flat out kill the character, over the course of several encounters, and go to bed looking as fresh as he did in the morning.&nbsp; So, the whole &quot;dissociated mechanics&quot; thing can take a flying leap out the window AFAIC, because you're already allowing all sorts of dissociated mechanics in the game without complaint.&nbsp; Explain to me, in mundane terms, with no reference to the supernatural, how a Barbarian's damage reduction works.&nbsp; Explain to me how Second Wind works in the game fiction.&nbsp; On and on and on.&nbsp; If by &quot;dissociated mechanics&quot; you simply mean, &quot;Keep your 4e peanut butter out of my 5e chocolate&quot; then fair enough.&nbsp; Own up to it.&nbsp; Otherwise, it's a pretty weak sauce argument given the sheer number of dissociated mechanics already in the game that you don't complain about.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6663187, member: 22779"] Hang on. You're saying that learning magic is now [i]easier[/i] than learning to use a sword? How does that jive with D&D where magic is meant to be difficult to learn and out of reach of the common person. Because the common person most certainly can learn to use a weapon and it was pretty darn common for many people to be trained in local militia. If learning to bend reality to your will was that easy that it only takes a couple of days, just like learning to use a gun, why doesn't everyone in the game world start with numerous spells instead of weapon proficiencies? Or spells in addition to weapon proficiencies. Considering that every single first level character comes out of the chute knowing how to use several weapons, wouldn't it make sense that they learned a couple of spells if magic were really that easy? Yes, I want a real explanation. It's not venting. No one has actually explained why it's perfectly fine for a fighter to have access to spells and thus gain the choice, at 3rd level, of 2 at-will and 3 daily spells, without a spell book mind you, out of a selection of a dozen or so options, gaining a new spell every couple of levels, again, out of a fairly lengthy list, but, doing the same thing for a purely martial fighter is off the table. Even Battlemasters are limited in the number of times they can use their manoeuvres. "Because he gets tired"? Really? So, exactly why can I learn to trip someone, but, I cannot learn to do anything else until 7th level? ((Yes, yes, I know the BM get's 3 manoeuvres, stick to the point ok?)) Why can't I switch any of that out, say, on a daily basis? A caster can do it with no problem and learning magic is supposed to be hard. I'm not saying a BM should be able to choose a manoeuvre every single round. But, why not choose his suite of manoeuvres every day, just like a caster? He knows all of them, but, he chooses a particular "school of fighting" for the day and that "school of fighting" requires enough mental and physical preparation that it takes a long rest to "reset". Would this overpower the BM? Would this make a BM more powerful than a caster, or even a regular BM? I can't see how, since all the powers are already nicely balanced. Being able to switch them out shouldn't increase power particularly. So, what's the problem here? The question is "What's exactly wrong with the fighter?" That's my answer - the fighter does't have enough dials and knobs. I want a martial character with as many options over the course of his career as a caster. That would make me very happy. As far as the whole dissociated mechanics thing goes, that ship sailed as soon as you allowed Second Winds for fighters. A fighter can conceivably be bloodied numerous times per day, self heal and end the day with full HP and his Second Wind back. IOW, the fighter could take enough damage to flat out kill the character, over the course of several encounters, and go to bed looking as fresh as he did in the morning. So, the whole "dissociated mechanics" thing can take a flying leap out the window AFAIC, because you're already allowing all sorts of dissociated mechanics in the game without complaint. Explain to me, in mundane terms, with no reference to the supernatural, how a Barbarian's damage reduction works. Explain to me how Second Wind works in the game fiction. On and on and on. If by "dissociated mechanics" you simply mean, "Keep your 4e peanut butter out of my 5e chocolate" then fair enough. Own up to it. Otherwise, it's a pretty weak sauce argument given the sheer number of dissociated mechanics already in the game that you don't complain about. [/QUOTE]

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