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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6663272" data-attributes="member: 5834">They used to model the difficulty of learning magic with different xp tables. It was much more difficult to become a high level wizard. That made sense to me. It created problems with advancement during adventure design I guess, so they got rid of it. I would not have minded the inclusion of a mechanic making it more difficult to learn magic. At the moment such things are left up to the DM.In 3E the specialties were much more powerful and satisfying as well. A martial learned and received a ton of stuff in 3E. They didn't want that level of complexity with feat chains in 5E. You seem to like 4E's watered down abilities that did not in any way compare to the power of 5E martials. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but to each his own. All these folks wanting powerful martials completely ignore how powerful martials were in 3E/[/I]Pathfinder[/I]. They seem more focused on 4E making casters less powerful rather than the fact they made martials less powerful as well.A high level 3E/Pathfinder martial could cut down groups of demons, not these 1 hit point minions in 4E. But full hit point and capability demons of relatively high CR. A level 20 barbarian I ran in Pathfinder killed two balors in a single round he was so sickeningly powerful. The two-hander fighter could do a single hit for 300 plus damage. He had Lung and Stunning Attack. He took a moderate penalty on his hit roll and he could stun everything within 10 feet of him. When he used his pauldrons to enlarge himself, he could stun everything within 15 feet. The high level Crane Style Monk was nearly unhittable by anything visible. He often took a magic item that allowed  him to see invisibility making him unhittable by just about anything in sight range. The archer could get up to seven attacks in a round often with energy damage attached to each arrow annihilating creatures within a round. Get all three types of martials in the same group, nightmare for the DM. Literally damage that can't be handled by any creature in a monster book. Yet all these martial lovers don't want to play Pathfinder because the casters are too powerful, even though they were crazy powerful as well.Hard to listen to a group that basically got what they asked for in terms of power in 3E/Pathfinder, but were more concerned about equality with casters than enjoying the immensely powerful options they had. Even skills reached an obscene level in 3E/Pathfinder that allowed them to do some crazy stuff like leap an immense height or kip up or talk their way past the gates of hell. That's why I say the advantage of 4E was the nerf to casters, not the empowerment of martials. Martials were more powerful and capable in 3E/Pathfinder. But because casters had such powerful effect spells, some people accepted weaker 4E martials to have casters and martials balanced in terms of capabilities. That was the more important feature of 4E preferred by that crowd.Crack the Shell makes me laugh. A 3E/Pathfinder martial could emulate that scene in The Sword and Sorcerer where he shatters the swords of several enemies coming after him and cuts them down at the same time. Greater Sunder allowed you to Sunder armor and do damage at the same time. The only reason it didn't get used much is greed. You could cut someone's shield, armor, or weapons off and the excess damage would hit the target. Power Attack with Two-handed weapons was ridiculous. All of it was multiplied on a critical hit. Stat levels in Pathfinder/3E were insane as well. I remember constructing a martial character that could enlarge to giant size with something like a 40 strength and lift 5 tons or something. Yet 4E is the game for powerful martials with a wide range of capabilities? Did people saying this just not play much 3E/Pathfinder past the low levels? I imagine that is why it is boggling my mind that 4E martials are held up as some kind of example of powerful, wide ranging martials, yet nothing I saw in 4E for martials held a candle to what 3E/Pathfinder martials could do at high level. You want to be Hercules or Cu Chulain, you play 3E/Pathfinder to high level. You will be either one of those guys on steroids.</blockquote>

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