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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6663536" data-attributes="member: 5834">You run it differently than I do then. I did not. But that was funny. I've already admitted I don't want class balance in a fantasy game. I feel it is inappropriate for a fighter to have the breadth of power of a wizard. We've had this discussion. I don't think either of us will change our viewpoints. I do agree. 4E was very balanced. That is why I didn't like it. Wizards did not feel like wizards. They did not sufficiently stand out from the other classes to make the name wizard meaningful. Then again none of the classes did to me. I was tired of the small number of combat choices in 4E very early on. I could have scripted 4E combats after a while. At wil, at will, encounter power. My players were using encounter powers even when it was completely unnecessary within the fiction to do so just because they could and felt they should or they were wasting them. When I had players blowing encounter powers for no other reason than "I might as well because I can", I was done with 4E. I want resources to expended when the stuff hits the fan. Not because the resource is constantly available. Encounter powers went completely against the fiction I wanted to create by encouraging a player to use a resources meant to emulate  fighting ability that they did not need to use. I used to choke on encounter powers. Oh man, I hated encounter powers. Just thinking about them pisses me off.How can they not survive in the wilderness? Outlander allows you to do that quite easily. A ranger I just ran tracked a troll down leading the party without the mage casting  a single spell. The ranger is quite capable in the exploration pillar. You can add some out of combat flavor with backgrounds quite easily in 5E. Why couldn't a fighter with seven feats use one or two to expand his skill selection or other abilities if you want to do that. Skilled gives four skills for one feat. You can even buy him Healer for some out of combat healing. You can buy the fighter Inspired Leader to give the party temporary hit points every short rest. If you want him to be a great diplomat, you could write up a feat for that as well. Fighters have seven feats. Plenty of room to provide some non-combat utility.Not particularly true. The fighter and barbarian are the most narrow in terms of DPR. The fighter is the best at pure DPR, while the barbarian the best at taking DPR. The ranger is extremely versatile and the most capable in the exploration pillar. I was quite happy and surprised at how well the ranger does leading a group in the exploration pillar. No one can lead the entire group through difficult terrain allowing much faster travel and sustain them in the terrain without having to carry a huge amount of rations. They are quite good at scouting. If you give them a background with access to Thieves' tools, quite good at disarming traps and picking locks. The paladin is a capable secondary healer. He provides powerful defensive options to the group. He has some crowd control capabilities and group buffs. His high charisma allows him to negotiate with kings without having to resort to magic which is very dangerous in this edition. If you cast charm person or friends[/I in 5E, the target does not forget. Once released they may seek retribution. It's not like 3E where you could cast these spells over and over again to maintain control. It's very hard to do. If someone dispels them, you're in trouble. It's much easier to have a paladin or bard face man do the talking. If you really want to, you can build a fighter capable of doing so, but it is not optimal.The rogue is amazingly fun in play in 5E. I haven't played a rogue since maybe 1E. I did not enjoy 3E rogues, though they could be powerful. 5E rogues are amazing. Maybe on paper they don't appear very strong to some, in play they have performed well in every campaign I've run them in or played one. Their capabilities are very applicable in a lot of combats. If you are able to buy Resilient: Con, they have four good saves by high level. All three archetypes have attractive abilities be the killer assassin, the extremely stealthy thief, or the versatile arcane trickster. Rogue is a very satisfying and versatile class. A half-elf rogue starts with something like 8 skills and two or three tools. Very versatile capabilities given magic can no longer solve all the ills of the world.The monk is still a bit mad. It gets better as you level. You need a good Dex, Con, and Wisdom for a good monk. His best abilities come after level 6. He's sort of a watered down fighter prior to level 6. Once he gets going, he can be pretty tough and versatile. His mobility is second to none. I think it is one of the better balanced out of combat fighters due to backgrounds and the reduced ability of magic to do mundane tasks. Even the simple ability to climb well is useful in this game because a wizard doesn't want to waste a memorization slot or a spell slot on spider climb or fly in less than dire circumstances. The fighter feels like he matters in this game because the caster no longer has the resources to deal with enemies, mundane obstacles, and the like alone. Limited number of spell slots making them very precious. Lack of easy access to disposable magic items. Concentration mechanic doesn't allow stacking of things like invis. and fly. Familiar is very weak and killable past the low levels and can't avoid being seen very easily due to a lack of skills. This is one of the first editions I've seen in a long time where you can build a Stealthy dex-based fighter that can move ahead with the rogue on scouting operations because he is no longer tied to heavy armor. Stealth for a fighter is as good as Stealth for any class other than a rogue or bard. I'm not seeing the same limited fighter you are. I think you can build some different types of fighters as long as you're willing to pay feats for something other than combat enhancement. I don't want those type of abilities for fighters. Fighters are fine as is.In the Tyranny of Dragons campaign, the fighter killed three of five young dragons in a big fight. My wizard only managed to kill one. The fighter did the most damage to Tiamat and landed the killing blow to finish her. My wizard did next to no damage to her. The fighter killed the dragon prophet in one round using Action Surge. The EK Archer was the most dangerous member of our group. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing in actual play with the fighter. I'm seeing the most versatile and effective fighter builds for things other than combat in any edition of D&D I can recall. Fighters are highly effective in battle. They can participate in activities they wouldn't otherwise have been able to in the past without multiclassing with backgrounds, spending money on expanding language and tool proficiency, or simply spending a feat on something unusual like Inspiring Leader or Healer. I guess our experiences differ with the 5E fighter. Both of which I've seen used effectively on top of the fighter's excellent combat ability.</blockquote>

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