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So what's exactly wrong with the fighter?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6664085" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>That'd be short-changed on skills. </p><p></p><p> I suppose you'd want to use 'mundane," then, with it's connotation of mediocrity? We could just say non-magic-using, clumsy though it is. In any case, there are 5 such builds in 5e, and they're still supposed to represent heroic fantasy archetypes (once you're out of Apprentice Tier, anyway).</p><p></p><p> Bracers of defense certainly exist in this edition. And, the availability of a single spell is actually higher. You don't have to fill multiple slots with the same spell to keep it available after casting it, because you're casting spontaneously, now. As long as you have your top-level slot left, every spell you prepared is available to cast. </p><p></p><p>The highest ACs, including having a better, critically-important Touch AC, were available with relatively light armor (Celestial Mail being just ridiculous that way), so very high DEX could be pretty optimal. But, yes, skill points killed the 3e fighter's effectiveness at almost anything that didn't reference his BAB. One of the good things Pathfinder added was the BAB-based combat maneuver bonus.</p><p></p><p></p><p> They're not exactly kick-ass in 5e, but yeah, everyone has better access to non-class/non-combat proficiencies via Backgrounds. That doesn't help the fighter class relative to other classes...</p><p></p><p> Even were that true, I'm not sure it helps much. The breadth of power for an individual D&D wizard is still greater than displayed by individual magic-using archetypes in genre and the D&D fighter's breadth of power is still less than that displayed by corresponding archetypes in genre. And, it's only true if you compare the 5e wizard to it's incarnations in the worst-balanced levels and editions of the game's past. Of course, reigning in the power of wizards and expanding that of fighters would be progress, if 5e had done so relative to all past editions - but it didn't.</p><p></p><p> And that's the real problem with trying to portray the 5e fighter as any better off or the 5e wizard or other casters as any more limited. It's only true if you compare them selectively to editions that failed to balance them in the past. Compare to 4e, and the fighter has lost options and casters gained, and not be a small margin - though, even in 4e, <em>casters, particularly the wizard, still had more options than martial characters</em>.</p><p></p><p>This isn't really an edition v edition issue, it's a class issue, and every edition is 'guilty.' </p><p></p><p> It's a matter of degree. The better-balanced the system, the less need there is for the DM to distort the campaign to force spotlight balance. You're right that there almost always will be some such need, though. Players are different, both in system-mastery skills and in assertiveness. DMs vary in how precisely they want to assure equal-participation among their players, too.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6664085, member: 996"] That'd be short-changed on skills. I suppose you'd want to use 'mundane," then, with it's connotation of mediocrity? We could just say non-magic-using, clumsy though it is. In any case, there are 5 such builds in 5e, and they're still supposed to represent heroic fantasy archetypes (once you're out of Apprentice Tier, anyway). Bracers of defense certainly exist in this edition. And, the availability of a single spell is actually higher. You don't have to fill multiple slots with the same spell to keep it available after casting it, because you're casting spontaneously, now. As long as you have your top-level slot left, every spell you prepared is available to cast. The highest ACs, including having a better, critically-important Touch AC, were available with relatively light armor (Celestial Mail being just ridiculous that way), so very high DEX could be pretty optimal. But, yes, skill points killed the 3e fighter's effectiveness at almost anything that didn't reference his BAB. One of the good things Pathfinder added was the BAB-based combat maneuver bonus. They're not exactly kick-ass in 5e, but yeah, everyone has better access to non-class/non-combat proficiencies via Backgrounds. That doesn't help the fighter class relative to other classes... Even were that true, I'm not sure it helps much. The breadth of power for an individual D&D wizard is still greater than displayed by individual magic-using archetypes in genre and the D&D fighter's breadth of power is still less than that displayed by corresponding archetypes in genre. And, it's only true if you compare the 5e wizard to it's incarnations in the worst-balanced levels and editions of the game's past. Of course, reigning in the power of wizards and expanding that of fighters would be progress, if 5e had done so relative to all past editions - but it didn't. And that's the real problem with trying to portray the 5e fighter as any better off or the 5e wizard or other casters as any more limited. It's only true if you compare them selectively to editions that failed to balance them in the past. Compare to 4e, and the fighter has lost options and casters gained, and not be a small margin - though, even in 4e, [i]casters, particularly the wizard, still had more options than martial characters[/i]. This isn't really an edition v edition issue, it's a class issue, and every edition is 'guilty.' It's a matter of degree. The better-balanced the system, the less need there is for the DM to distort the campaign to force spotlight balance. You're right that there almost always will be some such need, though. Players are different, both in system-mastery skills and in assertiveness. DMs vary in how precisely they want to assure equal-participation among their players, too. [/QUOTE]
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